Do bicycles and cars mix?

One of the reasons why the death rate on US highways is so
much lower than that of Europe is that we have had the courage to
ban bicycles from major roads. The two modes of traffic never
mix at all.

Sorry, I have to disagree on the point that bicycles should be banned from
major roads.

My UK experience is of cycling on major roads *as is my right over here* and
finding it a generally enjoyable experience and I've not had a run-in with a
vehicle. Yes, there are some idiots behind the wheels of motorised transport,
but on the whole, we mix well and safely - but we cyclists have to fight to
have it so. Many European countries have a wonderful culture of *respecting*
and *encouraging* cycling - more so than here in the UK. I'm off to Paris for
the last stage of Le Tour and then on to germany to cycle part of the Rhine
cycle route and I can't wait to get there! A friend of mine has cycled the part
of the Rhine I'm going to and tells me it's cycling heaven compared to the Uk
as cycling is an accepted and normal part of life.

I don't know what the USA experience is like as I've never driven or cycled
there, but I do know I would *loathe* being in a situation where the car was so
paramount that non-motorised methods of getting from A to B was discouraged or
banned the way it *appears* to be in the States. I can see the UK heading that
way and I will resist it all I can!

Cheers, helen s




~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email
Mail sent to it is dumped
My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$ **o$l.c$$*o$*m*$
by getting rid of the overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

They are equally illegal on divided,
limited access highways (autobahns, autoroutes, motorways, etc.) in every
European country that I know of. Where's the difference between the US and
Europe?

In the UK they are banned from motorways BUT are *not* from dual carriageways
and other A roads or major roads. To be banned from a normal major road over
here is *rare* - over here we cyclists have a *right* to be on the road and
drivers of motorised transport are there by *licence* - a fact a lot of
motorists and cyclists over here tend to forget :-)

Cheers, helen s






~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email
Mail sent to it is dumped
My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$ **o$l.c$$*o$*m*$
by getting rid of the overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" wrote

Sorry, I have to disagree on the point that bicycles should be banned from
major roads.

My UK experience is of cycling on major roads *as is my right over here*
and
finding it a generally enjoyable experience and I've not had a run-in with
a
vehicle. Yes, there are some idiots behind the wheels of motorised
transport,
but on the whole, we mix well and safely - but we cyclists have to fight
to
have it so. Many European countries have a wonderful culture of
*respecting*
and *encouraging* cycling - more so than here in the UK. I'm off to Paris
for
the last stage of Le Tour and then on to germany to cycle part of the
Rhine
cycle route and I can't wait to get there! A friend of mine has cycled the
part
of the Rhine I'm going to and tells me it's cycling heaven compared to the
Uk
as cycling is an accepted and normal part of life.

I don't know what the USA experience is like as I've never driven or
cycled
there, but I do know I would *loathe* being in a situation where the car
was so
paramount that non-motorised methods of getting from A to B was
discouraged or
banned the way it *appears* to be in the States. I can see the UK heading
that
way and I will resist it all I can!

Cheers, helen s

I'm lucky enough to live in a corner of the US where cycling is an accepted
and normal part of life, and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. I have
spent time in areas where, as you describe, the car is so paramount that
non-motorised transport is discouraged or appears to be banned. You are
correct, it is a truly loathsome state of affairs, unpleasant for motorists,
cyclists, and pedestrians alike.
--
mark

By divided, limited access highways, I meant what are called motorways in
Great Britain, and Interstate highways, freeways, etc. here in the US.
Bicycles are not banned from divided roads in the US unless the road is
built like a motorway. Sorry if I wasn't completely clear.

Okay :-)

But, I don't know if you are aware (so apologies if this sounds like teaching
my granny to suck eggs!) but we have A roads which are motorways in all but
name & designation - dual carriageways - with the same speed limit as a
motorway and cyclists are not banned from these. Dual width road each side of a
central reservation area dividing the opposing flows of traffic. They can be
great for time trials :-)

Cheers, helen s


~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email
Mail sent to it is dumped
My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$ **o$l.c$$*o$*m*$
by getting rid of the overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX wrote:

They are equally illegal on divided,
limited access highways (autobahns, autoroutes, motorways, etc.) in every
European country that I know of. Where's the difference between the US and
Europe?

In the UK they are banned from motorways BUT are *not* from dual carriageways
and other A roads or major roads. To be banned from a normal major road over
here is *rare* - over here we cyclists have a *right* to be on the road and
drivers of motorised transport are there by *licence* - a fact a lot of
motorists and cyclists over here tend to forget :-)

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email
Mail sent to it is dumped
My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$ **o$l.c$$*o$*m*$
by getting rid of the overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

It is the same deal in Canada. We cyclists have such an inherent right to the
road that we need no licence. We have the right to be there. Motorists must
earn thru education and buy with money the licence to bring their motor vehicles
onto the common road.
Try to explain that one. Eyeballs roll up to watch the mind movie ... Only
fellow cyclists can just possibly follow that line of "heresy".
Some time ago I was given a travel book of India. One of the images in it was
the Grand Trunk Road, built by the British Raj in the early 19th century. A very
wide roadway that runs N/S in India. The picture, BTW was 20th century
contemporary, not 100 years ago. It showed pedestrians, loaded camels, mule
trains, horse and camel drawn wagons, trucks piled hugely high with goods, and of
course bicycles, all travelling slowly, north and south. The perspective was
good, as it took in a fairly long view. There did not seem to be any clear rules
of "keep to the left" (or right). Everyone seemed to be loosely spread out.
The point is, all these road users had a right to be there. The trucks were
capable of high speeds, but not without trashing the many low speed road users.
I quite enjoyed the picture, and the message it delivered.
Bernie

Don Quijote wrote:
Well, it seems the combination of undertrained, careless drivers and
bicycles don't mix. Some--probably sponsored by GM--claim they do, but
the following articles illustrates that roads remain a dangerous
jungle--for the little animals...
Car slams into 20 cyclists Three of the 13 hospitalized are reported in
serious condition. No charges have been filed. By CHRIS TISCH, Times
Staff Writer © St. Petersburg Times published July 7, 2003
ST. PETERSBURG - It was a beautiful Sunday morning, and several dozen
bicyclists moved two abreast like a caterpillar through the residential
streets of St. Petersburg.
Kip Vosburgh was near the back of the pack when he heard screams, looked
up and saw a Lincoln Continental mowing down the cyclists, spraying them
over the hood, onto the street and into the gutter.
"It was almost like Moses and the Red Sea was parting," Vosburgh said.
"Then I was looking right at the grille of the car."
Vosburgh was flipped over the hood and into the gutter, his leg and
arm broken.
He was one of about 20 cyclists hit, 13 of of whom were hospitalized.
Three were in serious condition Sunday night. The others were in fair
condition or were treated and released.
The driver, Joseph D. Pastore, 60, of Pinellas Park, told police he was
trying to pass another car when he plowed into the line of bikes. Police
are investigating whether Pastore, who carried a cane and has disability
license plates, was impaired or suffered from a medical condition.
Pastore, who was released from Ed White Hospital after the crash,
declined to speak to reporters. No charges were filed, though an
investigation continues.
Two of Pastore's neighbors said he passed out in his car Friday.
Neighbor Stephenie Payne said she was pulling out of her driveway
and saw him.
"I backed up to see if he was okay," she said. "Then he woke up."
The crash occurred about 8:40 a.m. on 30th Avenue N just west of 53rd
Street, a thin ribbon of residential street.
The 30 to 40 cyclists, many with the St. Petersburg Bike Club or the St.
Pete Mad Dog Triathlon Club, were pedaling west. They had met at the
main library about 10 minutes earlier and were on a trip that takes them
to Clearwater Beach and back through the island cities. Most were going
less than 20 mph.
"Everybody was just chatting," said Debra Ryder, out for her first ride
with the group.
The cyclists have taken the route every Sunday for many years. They have
close calls with motorists from time to time, but nothing similar to
what happened Sunday.
Witnesses said the eastbound Continental veered toward the cyclists,
cutting into the group head-on about halfway through their ranks, then
dispatching the cyclists like dominoes.
"There's no way he could not have seen us," Ryder said. "He went to
pass, he accelerated and he never slowed down."
While cyclists were tumbled and tossed, the car sheared through their
bikes, swallowing them underneath and snapping them in pieces.
Most of the injured were in the inside line near the curb. Cyclist Sam
Miller was in the outside line pedaling next to a woman taking the
Sunday ride for the first time. When Miller saw the car chucking
cyclists, he wrenched his bike left. The car whipped past him, missing
by inches. But it struck the woman.
"There was nowhere to go. She went right into it. You didn't have much
time to think," Miller, 43, said.
Cyclists slammed into the car's windshield, cracking it into a spider
web of glass. Bike wheels and handlebars went spinning. Some riders
were thrown so forcefully off their cycles that their shoes remained in
the pedals.
"Men and women were screaming, bodies were flying," Ryder said. "A wheel
went flying right in front of me. It was like an explosion. There were
bicycle parts everywhere, blood everywhere."
Miller estimated the car was going 30 mph. The car left no skid marks.
The car ran over a curb, the bikes underneath it scraping against the
sidewalk, eventually stopping
it. One neighbor inside his house thought a car had knocked over garbage
cans. Another said it sounded like a car thumping fence posts.
Neighbors reported hearing Pastore say a variety of things.
"He said, "I must have hit something,' " said Roy Luers, whose yard was
the car's final resting place. "He was out of it. He didn't know."
Another said Pastore told her something had flown into his eye. Another
saw a diabetic necklace dangling from his neck.
Pastore told police he tried to pass another car, even though he was
traveling in a no-pass zone. Police want to find the other motorist, who
was driving an older-model, light-colored, foreign-made car. That
motorist is not facing charges, police said.
Neighbors and cyclists with cell phones dialed 911 while tending to the
wounded. Ten ambulances were dispatched. Ryder tended to a man with
serious leg and pelvis injuries. His helmet was split down the back.
Two cyclists were taken by helicopter to Bayfront Medical Center. Others
were taken by ambulance to Bayfront, Northside Hospital and St.
Anthony's Hospital.
The three in serious condition at Bayfront were David Arnold, Maria
Riquet and Ronald Diner, a hospital spokesman said. Their ages and
addresses were not available.
Police said the cyclists were wearing helmets. According to state law,
bicycling two abreast is legal; three abreast is not.
Vosburgh, 56, who began seriously cycling a few years ago, said he
planned a bike trip with his wife, Carol Jean, in Nova Scotia in August.
When she arrived at the hospital, he immediately asked about his bike, a
red titanium Serrota costing $6,000. She said it was in pieces.
The cyclists said their group is tight-knit. The St. Petersburg Bike
Club has about 260 members, while the Mad Dog group has about 800
local members.
"That's why we travel in groups. There's safety in numbers," Carol Jean
Vosburgh said.
Despite the accident, the cyclists said they would continue to ride.
"I have no intention of not going back," Vosburgh said from his hospital
bed. "In life, I'd rather wear out than rust out."
http://webspawner.com/users/bikeforp....com/users/bi-
keforpeace

It is my opinion -

That dangerous drivers are dangerous to all...not just cyclist.

That the group of riders would not have had time to react....(they
traveling at just under 20mph, and the car from opposing direction
traveling at 30mph (and accelerating) -0- this makes for a 50mph
impact........how quickly could you have reacted?

That roadways - excepting the ones that actually have properly marked
bike lanes - are incredibly dangerous for cyclist.

That Bikeways are designed in such a way as not to be useful for daily
transportation (ie, it doesn't start or end anywhere near where it would
be useful) I tend to see them as a place of recreation riding.

I believe if the advocates for cycling safety could come together that
they would actually be able to force legislation refering to all new
construction of roadway (exclusive of interstates) to include either a
marked bike lane and or considerably wide shoulder for riding.

Enough ranting...(still bothered about the St. Pete driver mowing down a
group of riders -=- I hope them all a speedy recovery.




--
Randal Lovelace



--------------------------
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

You should be high left in the lane with a clear sight line to the truck's
left mirror. The car behind you will not attempt a pass as you are
dominating the centerline. You should close up rapidly along the
centerline and wait to cut your right turn behind the truck when you
are sure of its intentions.

The car driver saw an opportunity to pass you because you gave him
too much space.

Lot of assumptions in this post. Maybe the guy didnt see him at all. You could
also get your ass run over while "dominating the center line." Never assume.
This sounds like a road with a lot of space on the right. It is better to ride
a consistent line to the right, where it doesnt matter if you're seen or not,
than to ride left and cut right.

It is better to ride like you're not seen than to ride to be seen. Most of the
time, you can't do both.

Robert

In article ,
(R15757) writes:

Lot of assumptions in this post. Maybe the guy didnt see him at all. You could
also get your ass run over while "dominating the center line." Never assume.
This sounds like a road with a lot of space on the right.

I know this stretch, and have ridden it myself. Narrow lane, and
the only thing on the right is sidewalk, and then concrete barrier.
No shoulder, no verge. This is definitely entire-lane-taking
territory. Riding on there is truly "threading the needle". And
Bernie forgot to mention the killer diagonal RR tracks.

It is better to ride
a consistent line to the right, where it doesnt matter if you're seen or not,
than to ride left and cut right.

With any line to the right of the centre of the lane there, one
just gets passed too closely, or disappears from drivers' views
(which are dominated by large trucks).

It is better to ride like you're not seen than to ride to be seen. Most of the
time, you can't do both.

In this particular stretch, I opt for the latter. Actually,
there's not even an option. On Front St, ya bloody well *gotta*
make sure you're seen.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Despite various experiments, no one has successfully mixed bicycles and
cars. The amperage on most blender motors is not sufficient.

As a cyclist, I successfully mix with cars on a daily basis when riding on the
road.

Cheers, helen s


~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email
Mail sent to it is dumped
My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$ **o$l.c$$*o$*m*$
by getting rid of the overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

Despite various experiments, no one has successfully mixed bicycles and
cars. The amperage on most blender motors is not sufficient.

As a cyclist, I successfully mix with cars on a daily basis when riding on
the
road.

However, this does not stop me from being less than awake when reading a post
;-)

Cheers, helen s


~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email
Mail sent to it is dumped
My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$ **o$l.c$$*o$*m*$
by getting rid of the overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~