Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

No.

Well, that's pretty definate but I say yes. Many decades of both convonce me
that things like reading the road and positioning transfer. I'm a better
motorcyclist for being a bicyclist.
Phil Brown

(dw) wrote in message . com...

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

No, but the reverse is true in two ways --

1) Riding a motorcycle (well) will teach you how to pick a correct
line, and anticipate appropriate cornering speeds. These skills
transfer directly to descending on a bicycle. I'm an average climber
on my group rides, but I'm comfortable descending much faster than
most cyclists.

2) Riding a motorcycle will teach you just how much front-wheel
braking is possible on a single-track two wheel vehicle. This skill
doesn't automatically translate to cycling, but raises awareness that
you can brake much harder than you might anticipate with the front
brake. This awareness does translate to bicycles, and with
bicycle-specific practice, this will allow you to brake harder than
you currently do. This will also help your descending.

But in short, even a 12% grade basically makes you as powerful as a
1962 DKW Hummel moped, so short of the descent from the Fuschertorl to
Fusch, you won't gain many minutes by these methods.

- Christian

(dw) wrote in message . com...

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

No, but the reverse is true in two ways --

1) Riding a motorcycle (well) will teach you how to pick a correct
line, and anticipate appropriate cornering speeds. These skills
transfer directly to descending on a bicycle. I'm an average climber
on my group rides, but I'm comfortable descending much faster than
most cyclists.

2) Riding a motorcycle will teach you just how much front-wheel
braking is possible on a single-track two wheel vehicle. This skill
doesn't automatically translate to cycling, but raises awareness that
you can brake much harder than you might anticipate with the front
brake. This awareness does translate to bicycles, and with
bicycle-specific practice, this will allow you to brake harder than
you currently do. This will also help your descending.

But in short, even a 12% grade basically makes you as powerful as a
1962 DKW Hummel moped, so short of the descent from the Fuschertorl to
Fusch, you won't gain many minutes by these methods.

- Christian

It's worth mentioning that the best book on cornering on a bicycle _A
Gear Higher_ was written by someone who wrote a classic text on
motorcycling (_A Twist of the Wrist_ I think is the title).

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

It's worth mentioning that the best book on cornering on a bicycle _A
Gear Higher_ was written by someone who wrote a classic text on
motorcycling (_A Twist of the Wrist_ I think is the title).

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:51:18 -0700, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:

wrote:

wrote:

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning
radius, so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and
motorcycles riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are;
I'm just jumping in at random )

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

Ya got me; I probably know less about bicycle racing than you do. From
other posts here I gather that this is not generally a major concern.

For me, I can only think of two or three turns that I ride regularly which
require me to use any "cornering skills". I generally slow down way more
than is necessary... I don't think I'm even close to limits of traction,
but I don't really want to find out the hard way (is there an easy way?)

Dear Benjamin,

Almost everyone slows down more than is necessary when
cornering.

As far as I know, there's only one way to find out if you're
at the limit of cornering traction--a wheel abruptly slips
out from under you.

Riders most often crash in corners not by losing traction
and falling down into the inside of the turn in this
fashion, but by overshooting the turn and faithfully
following a too-wide line to their doom. It's awfully hard
to tighten up a turn after you've committed yourself to a
line and speed.

A common feeling is a helpless I-can't-turn-that-sharply
behind someone who is doing exactly that because he started
out intending to make a sharper turn.

Just as bad as over-shooting the curve is the panic-driven
braking and jerking toward the inside of the curve that
leads to a high-side crash--plenty of traction, enough to
flip the bike and rider to the outside of the curve.

It's rare to see someone simply dive into a turn so fast on
a bicycle that the wheels just slip out from under him as if
he'd hit a patch of ice.

In any case, most bicycle crashes have little to do with
deliberate cornering. The riders crash because they run into
each other, are trying to avoid running into each other, or
face an unexpected hazard--a dog, a car, a spectator, a
patch of loose straw hay in the turn, a nasty crack in the
pavement, and so on.

In general, bicycle riders are actually well below the
limits of traction in corners--otherwise, they'd be falling
down toward the inside. Some of this is due to ignorance,
but most of it is due to quite sensible fear. Cornering
until you lose traction on a normal course means crashing,
which a) slows you down and b) may kill you.

Cars, of course, are different, since they just slide on
four tires without falling. Car testers simply accelerate
around a skid pad and note the speed at which the skid
starts.

Anyone unsure about this sort of thing can test the limits
of traction on a large, deserted parking lot by repeatedly
approaching a sharp curve laid out with chalk marks at
higher and higher speeds. The vast majority of riders will
never have the nerve to turn hard enough to lose traction
and fall to the inside of the turn--they'll just overshoot
the chalk marks harmlessly. Those who don't will suffer
considerable road rash, or worse.

Carl Fogel

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:51:18 -0700, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:

wrote:

wrote:

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning
radius, so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and
motorcycles riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are;
I'm just jumping in at random )

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

Ya got me; I probably know less about bicycle racing than you do. From
other posts here I gather that this is not generally a major concern.

For me, I can only think of two or three turns that I ride regularly which
require me to use any "cornering skills". I generally slow down way more
than is necessary... I don't think I'm even close to limits of traction,
but I don't really want to find out the hard way (is there an easy way?)

Dear Benjamin,

Almost everyone slows down more than is necessary when
cornering.

As far as I know, there's only one way to find out if you're
at the limit of cornering traction--a wheel abruptly slips
out from under you.

Riders most often crash in corners not by losing traction
and falling down into the inside of the turn in this
fashion, but by overshooting the turn and faithfully
following a too-wide line to their doom. It's awfully hard
to tighten up a turn after you've committed yourself to a
line and speed.

A common feeling is a helpless I-can't-turn-that-sharply
behind someone who is doing exactly that because he started
out intending to make a sharper turn.

Just as bad as over-shooting the curve is the panic-driven
braking and jerking toward the inside of the curve that
leads to a high-side crash--plenty of traction, enough to
flip the bike and rider to the outside of the curve.

It's rare to see someone simply dive into a turn so fast on
a bicycle that the wheels just slip out from under him as if
he'd hit a patch of ice.

In any case, most bicycle crashes have little to do with
deliberate cornering. The riders crash because they run into
each other, are trying to avoid running into each other, or
face an unexpected hazard--a dog, a car, a spectator, a
patch of loose straw hay in the turn, a nasty crack in the
pavement, and so on.

In general, bicycle riders are actually well below the
limits of traction in corners--otherwise, they'd be falling
down toward the inside. Some of this is due to ignorance,
but most of it is due to quite sensible fear. Cornering
until you lose traction on a normal course means crashing,
which a) slows you down and b) may kill you.

Cars, of course, are different, since they just slide on
four tires without falling. Car testers simply accelerate
around a skid pad and note the speed at which the skid
starts.

Anyone unsure about this sort of thing can test the limits
of traction on a large, deserted parking lot by repeatedly
approaching a sharp curve laid out with chalk marks at
higher and higher speeds. The vast majority of riders will
never have the nerve to turn hard enough to lose traction
and fall to the inside of the turn--they'll just overshoot
the chalk marks harmlessly. Those who don't will suffer
considerable road rash, or worse.

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:03:37 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
wrote:

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.


Are you riding your kids BMX bike on the little hill behind your house?
When I'm descending 8% grades, I sometimes pass motorcyclists at 55 mph.
Bicycling, like what we are talking in this newsgroup (not kids BMX bikes)
takes much more talent. For one, your center of gravity is so much higher
than on a motorcycle.

Dear Cal,

When I plug in 0 watts for coasting and -0.08 for an 8%
grade, it appears that you and your bicycle need to weigh
around 273 pounds to reach 55 mph (24.6 meters per second):

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Even if you and your bike really are reaching 55 mph on 8%
grades, I suspect that the motorcycles could out-corner you
if they were interested. And if you're braking, you're no
longer doing 55 mph.

The Fury RoadMaster easily reached 35 mph on the s-bend down
the arroyo about a minute from my house. The last curve is
exciting, but only because it's blind and someone may be
coming up on the wrong side of the road or a deer may be
standing in the way.

I can't quite believe that typical bicyclists on this group
are exercising tremendous talent in cornering most of the
time, but I'm open to correction.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:03:37 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
wrote:

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.


Are you riding your kids BMX bike on the little hill behind your house?
When I'm descending 8% grades, I sometimes pass motorcyclists at 55 mph.
Bicycling, like what we are talking in this newsgroup (not kids BMX bikes)
takes much more talent. For one, your center of gravity is so much higher
than on a motorcycle.

Dear Cal,

When I plug in 0 watts for coasting and -0.08 for an 8%
grade, it appears that you and your bicycle need to weigh
around 273 pounds to reach 55 mph (24.6 meters per second):

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Even if you and your bike really are reaching 55 mph on 8%
grades, I suspect that the motorcycles could out-corner you
if they were interested. And if you're braking, you're no
longer doing 55 mph.

The Fury RoadMaster easily reached 35 mph on the s-bend down
the arroyo about a minute from my house. The last curve is
exciting, but only because it's blind and someone may be
coming up on the wrong side of the road or a deer may be
standing in the way.

I can't quite believe that typical bicyclists on this group
are exercising tremendous talent in cornering most of the
time, but I'm open to correction.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Are you riding your kids BMX bike on the little hill behind your
house?
When I'm descending 8% grades, I sometimes pass motorcyclists at 55 mph.
Bicycling, like what we are talking in this newsgroup (not kids BMX
bikes)
takes much more talent. For one, your center of gravity is so much
higher
than on a motorcycle.

Dear Cal,

When I plug in 0 watts for coasting and -0.08 for an 8%
grade, it appears that you and your bicycle need to weigh
around 273 pounds to reach 55 mph (24.6 meters per second):

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Even if you and your bike really are reaching 55 mph on 8%
grades, I suspect that the motorcycles could out-corner you
if they were interested. And if you're braking, you're no
longer doing 55 mph.

I'm talking about a screamer, slight curves. Did you figure wind in
your calculation? Of course, a motorcycle is easier, they can use their
transmission, and disc brakes to keep everything under control. A road bike
has a pair of crummy rim brakes, and by sitting up as a wind brake to
control things. I've done both, and it's a mix. The one thing I would
totally agree with you, is that the engine of a motorcycle can get you into
a lot more trouble than a bicycle engine can, if you ride outside your
ability.