What's the best patch?

JB, excellent tube talk !
And a Brandtism …
Flexing of rolling bias ply tires also loosens patches. Laying a
standard 3.5x2 inch paper business card between tire and tube will
show how severe this action is. After a hundred miles or so, the card
will have been shredded into millimeter size confetti.
Although talcum powder on the outside of tubes does nothing useful,

A tube can be folded into as small a package as when it was new and
practically airless, by sucking the air out while using the finger
opposite the stem to prevent re-inflation. This is not done by
inhaling but by puckering the cheeks. Although the powders inside
tubes are not poisonous in the mouth, they are not good for the lungs,
but then that's obvious.
Their black center section exudes a brown gas that discolors light
colored tire casings in daylight.
Diurinal ? it psychoactive or damaging genetically according to the
state ?
eeyahahahhawhowhowho

On Apr 5, 9:08*pm, datakoll wrote:
JB, excellent tube talk !
And a Brandtism …
Flexing of rolling bias ply tires also loosens patches. Laying a
standard 3.5x2 inch paper business card between tire and tube will
show how severe this action is. After a hundred miles or so, the card
will have been shredded into millimeter size confetti.
Although talcum powder on the outside of tubes does nothing useful,

A tube can be folded into as small a package as when it was new and
practically airless, by sucking the air out while using the finger
opposite the stem to prevent re-inflation. This is not done by
inhaling but by puckering the cheeks. Although the powders inside
tubes are not poisonous in the mouth, they are not good for the lungs,
but then that's obvious.
Their black center section exudes a brown gas that discolors light
colored tire casings in daylight.
Diurinal ? it psychoactive or damaging genetically according to the
state ?
eeyahahahhawhowhowho

senesence could read if recondite: "Although talcum on the outside of
tires does....

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:04:22 -0400, Neal wrote:


Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch.
That's never worked for me.

It works for me almost every time.

It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's found. My
technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center the hole side-to-
side and then place the flattened tube around the patch kit box. The Rema
patch kit box label is red and white. I place the puncture on the red-
white boundary. So the puncture is in the center of the tube on top of
the red-white boundary. I'll hold the tube in place with a clothes pin.
If the puncture is really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.

Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the sandpaper
to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting damage on the
tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded it's time to apply the
cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called glue.

I put a dab of the solution but not on the puncture. I then spread
solution with my clean pinky into a thin layer over a wide area that
covers the puncture and the patch area. I then wait for the solution to
dry completely. I do not blow on the solution to make it dry because
moisture will neutralize it. I'm patient and have learned no to use too
much solution.

I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
all directions.

Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create a
slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of the slit,
I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut the cellophane
into two halves. I roll each half off from the inside of the patch to the
edge. The idea in all of this is not to pull up the edge of the patch.

I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where there I
spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the patch. The
vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It liquifies the top layer of
rubber on the tube. That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to
be removed with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as
thin as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force the
liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry into
rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts a layer of
gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that exposed layer of
liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.

The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
surfaces and wait for them to dry.

The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's why
an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air will make it
evaporate. Heat will make it evaporate. That's why the small tubes don't
last long. I get a new tube every few months. The patches take longer to
degrade but they will after a few years.

Round Rema patches come in two diameters: 25mm (F1) and 16mm (F0).
Unfortunately, most of the kits contain only the larger patch. This patch
is wider than the width of a narrow tube folded flat on that patch kit
box. If the flattened tube width is narrower than the patch diameter,
then parts of the patch will be loose. I buy both sizes in boxes of 100
patches.

I'm a volunteer mechanic in about a half dozen rides each year. The
plethora of tube sizes combined with the propensity of riders to get
flats makes carrying a stash of new tubes impractical. I'll exchange a
patched tube for a punctured one, if it's a size I have. Otherwise, I'll
patch it on the spot. It's ready to ride with the procedure I outlined.
It takes longer to describe it than to do it.

Steve

On Apr 5, 8:35 pm, Stephen Bauman wrote:
On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:04:22 -0400, Neal wrote:
Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch.
That's never worked for me.

It works for me almost every time.

It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's found. My
technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center the hole side-to-
side and then place the flattened tube around the patch kit box. The Rema
patch kit box label is red and white. I place the puncture on the red-
white boundary. So the puncture is in the center of the tube on top of
the red-white boundary. I'll hold the tube in place with a clothes pin.
If the puncture is really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.

Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the sandpaper
to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting damage on the
tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded it's time to apply the
cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called glue.

I put a dab of the solution but not on the puncture. I then spread
solution with my clean pinky into a thin layer over a wide area that
covers the puncture and the patch area. I then wait for the solution to
dry completely. I do not blow on the solution to make it dry because
moisture will neutralize it. I'm patient and have learned no to use too
much solution.

I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
all directions.

Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create a
slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of the slit,
I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut the cellophane
into two halves. I roll each half off from the inside of the patch to the
edge. The idea in all of this is not to pull up the edge of the patch.

I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where there I
spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the patch. The
vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It liquifies the top layer of
rubber on the tube. That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to
be removed with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as
thin as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force the
liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry into
rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts a layer of
gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that exposed layer of
liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.

The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
surfaces and wait for them to dry.

The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's why
an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air will make it
evaporate. Heat will make it evaporate. That's why the small tubes don't
last long. I get a new tube every few months. The patches take longer to
degrade but they will after a few years.

Round Rema patches come in two diameters: 25mm (F1) and 16mm (F0).
Unfortunately, most of the kits contain only the larger patch. This patch
is wider than the width of a narrow tube folded flat on that patch kit
box. If the flattened tube width is narrower than the patch diameter,
then parts of the patch will be loose. I buy both sizes in boxes of 100
patches.

I'm a volunteer mechanic in about a half dozen rides each year. The
plethora of tube sizes combined with the propensity of riders to get
flats makes carrying a stash of new tubes impractical. I'll exchange a
patched tube for a punctured one, if it's a size I have. Otherwise, I'll
patch it on the spot. It's ready to ride with the procedure I outlined.
It takes longer to describe it than to do it.


Great post! (Between this and Peter's excellent post in a sort of OT
thread, a worthwhile weekend of Usenet.) Thanks!

In article ,
says...


What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.

Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.

Thanks!

Carry an extra tube and just switch tubes on the road if you get a flat. Use
Rema when you get home for a permanent fix so the punctured tube can be
used indefinitely until you've patched it a bunch of times. My experience
with the glueless Park patches is that they'll hold air fine for a day or two,
they're meant to get you home in good shape. And then use a real patch
like a Rema to permanently fix the flat.

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
Stephen Bauman wrote:

[...]
Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the
sandpaper to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting
damage on the tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded
it's time to apply the cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called
glue.

What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
alternative abrader to sand paper.[...]

The thumbnail sized rasp that comes in cheap patch kits, e.g.
http://www.travelproducts.com/store/bike.htm.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

wrote:
Stephen Bauman wrote:

Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch.
That's never worked for me.

It works for me almost every time.

It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center
the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube around the
patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and white. I
place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the puncture is
in the center of the tube on top of the red-white boundary. I'll
hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the puncture is
really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.

I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
sand the tube to a dull finish.

Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the
sandpaper to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting
damage on the tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded
it's time to apply the cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called
glue.

What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
alternative abrader to sand paper.

I put a dab of the solution but not on the puncture. I then spread
solution with my clean pinky into a thin layer over a wide area that
covers the puncture and the patch area. I then wait for the
solution to dry completely. I do not blow on the solution to make
it dry because moisture will neutralize it. I'm patient and have
learned not to use too much solution.

How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to
the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as
soon as they reach the surface.

jeepers ****ing creepers - that is /SOOOO/ incredibly wrong. have you
/ever/ bothered to read the instructions???

http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg

there you go jobst.

now, as for the science, increased air flow /does/ increase evaporation
rate. boundary layers. just because you've never bothered to learn
about this stuff, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. besides, how you
managed to reach adulthood without figuring out that a wet body in the
wind feels colder than a wet body in still air just blows my mind - it's
exactly the same effect and you'd have to be some kind of cretin to not
learn that lesson of general evaporation principle.



I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
all directions.

I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,

it is /supposed/ to be "dry".

http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg


something on which other compression means don't improve.

jobst, you need compression to ensure the prepared glued surface and the
prepared patch surface become intimate. that's how the bonding process
works!


I don't
understand what you are dispersing from the center.

how did you ever get that old without learning anything jobst??? you're
dispersing air. have you never stuck film to glass? and watched
bubbles migrate as you squeeze them out?


This is much like
applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.

no it isn't.



Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create
a slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of
the slit, I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut
the cellophane into two halves. I roll each half off from the
inside of the patch to the edge. The idea in all of this is not to
pull up the edge of the patch.

The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite
sides of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This will
separate and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled of from the
center to the edge. The REMA made patches this way is because pulling
a cellophane cover off from the edge will peel the patch off the tube.

why freakin bother??? just apply the patch, then when you're done
pressing it onto the tube in the manufacturer prescribed fashion, it
just pulls off. duh.



I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where
there I spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the
patch. The vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It
liquefies the top layer of rubber on the tube.

You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement onto a
tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have experimental
evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA patch cement. In
contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and are therefore best
patched with a piece of another latex tube remnant.

other than one tube containing carbon black and the other not, how is
the molecular bond between the two rubber types different jobst? and
how does the solvent work with the one you think dissolves?


That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to be removed
with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as thin
as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force
the liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry
into rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts
a layer of gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that
exposed layer of liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.

I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you
don't put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will
not get good adhesion.

http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg

read and learn.



The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
surfaces and wait for them to dry.

That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
vulcanizing solution on it.

correct.


It is a material that bonds with slightly
moist patch glue

incorrect - it shouldn't be "moist" jobst, simply fresh. it's a contact
adhesive. that's how contact adhesive work.


and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
through the patch.

see above.


That is why patches are only secure after a
substantial cure time, about three or four hours.

no, following manufacturer instruction, they're secure immediately.
that's why you can pump and ride immediately.


I don't know other
than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over
night.

that's because you're not doing it right. how old are you and how can
you fail to comprehend something as simple as this?

http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg



The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's
why an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air
will make it evaporate. Heat will make it evaporate. That's why
the small tubes don't last long. I get a new tube every few months.
The patches take longer to degrade but they will after a few years.

To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have no
problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in my
patch kit.

Round Rema patches come in two diameters: 25mm (F1) and 16mm (F0).
Unfortunately, most of the kits contain only the larger patch. This
patch is wider than the width of a narrow tube folded flat on that
patch kit box. If the flattened tube width is narrower than the
patch diameter, then parts of the patch will be loose. I buy both
sizes in boxes of 100 patches.

I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are he

http://tinyurl.com/cjya34

I'm a volunteer mechanic in about a half dozen rides each year. The
plethora of tube sizes combined with the propensity of riders to get
flats makes carrying a stash of new tubes impractical. I'll
exchange a patched tube for a punctured one, if it's a size I have.
Otherwise, I'll patch it on the spot. It's ready to ride with the
procedure I outlined. It takes longer to describe it than to do it.

That may be what you think, but I suggest you find a tube that was
ridden immediately after patching and see whether the patch lies flat
on the surface of the deflated tube. I am sure you will find the
patch is domed and, when cut in half with shears, reveals that it is
adhering only at its periphery with talcum powder under the domed
center. This is condition often becomes a slow leak.

no, it's a condition of [prematurely] putting the patch onto still
"moist" glue!



http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

it never ceases to amaze that someone so ignorant would want to air that
affliction in public so extensively. jobst, your fundamental
misconceptions and inability to learn is quite incredible.

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 05:58:30 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:


I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I sand
the tube to a dull finish.


Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually occurs
between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and the time I try
to apply the patch.


What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
alternative abrader to sand paper.


Other people have already replied. Using the "rasp" or "cheese grater"
requires special care for the paper thin latex tubes in sewups. I find
sandpaper is safer. Some of the old timers (ca. 1930's riders) considered
sandpaper an abomination.


How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry. Besides,
blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also won't
accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to the
surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as soon
as they reach the surface.


Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait until
a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on the tube.

Regarding moisture and the vulcanizing solution. The solution is clear,
when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it cloudy. This
indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of the moisture in the
breath has been trapped and is probably in contact with the tube. That's
not what I want.


I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,
something on which other compression means don't improve. I don't
understand what you are dispersing from the center. This is much like
applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.


If your patches take a day or so to "cure", then thumb pressure alone is
probably not "adequate".

Item #7 on the page previous to the link you provided:
http://tinyurl.com/cjya34
describes the Rema stitcher for applying patches. The description reads:
"By rolling the corrugated wheel back and forth over the newly applied
patch, a tight seal around the edges of the patch is encouraged."

I'm old school = tight. I find the plastic Rema kit with rounded edges
works fine. I'm working from the center to the sides to avoid
accidentally pulling up the patch form the sides. I'm also insuring that
the center of the patch gets a double dose to adhere properly.

This is not a contact phenomenon like self adhesive tape or a modern
postage stamp. The clue that it isn't is that both sides have to be
treated.



The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite sides
of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This will separate
and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled off from the center to
the edge. REMA made patches with this perforation across the center to
simplify pulling off cellophane from the center, because pulling it off
from the edge will peel the patch from the tube.


I think we are saying the same thing.


You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement onto a
tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have experimental
evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA patch cement. In
contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and are therefore best
patched with a piece of another latex tube remnant.


Butyl rubber is colorless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_rubber
The Rema vulcanizing solution does not dissolve the pigment only the
butyl rubber.


I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you don't
put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will not get
good adhesion.


Evaporation is a surface phenomenon. If you have a greater volume of
vulcanizing solution spread over the same area as a thin layer, then it
will take longer to dry. It may look dry because it evaporates from the
air down to the tube. Thus, a "too thick" layer may look dry but will
still be tacky at the tube - where it counts.


That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
vulcanizing solution on it. It is a material that bonds with slightly
moist patch glue and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
through the patch. That is why patches are only secure after a
substantial cure time, about three or four hours. I don't know other
than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over night.


There are some old school riders who are so cheap that they refuse to
waste a quarter on a patch. They cut up old tubes instead. These old
tubes need a separate treatment with vulcanizing solution before applying
them to the tube. I though I made the distinction between using cut up
old tubes and ready made patches clear. Sorry, for any misunderstanding.


To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have no
problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in my
patch kit.


Again look at the link you provided. Surface freight only for vulcanizing
solution. The stuff is made of volatile petroleum distillates - i.e.
flammable. Next time you fly, ask the airline whether you can take those
tubes with you. There are probably limitations on the amount you can
take. One or two tubes may fall within the guidelines. A single 8 oz can
does not.



I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are he

http://tinyurl.com/cjya34


Actually, it's bike tools etc. that has the wrong dimension for F0
patches.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...0-P+16Mm+Round
+Patches.aspx

You can verify this by taking a ruler and measuring the patch.

Steve

On 6 Apr, 04:35, Stephen Bauman wrote:

I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
all directions.

Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create a
slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of the slit,
I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut the cellophane
into two halves. I roll each half off from the inside of the patch to the
edge. The idea in all of this is not to pull up the edge of the patch.


I found the Rema worked well without abrading the tube. Some
recommend cleaning with spirit first. I burnish until the plastic/
paper breaks off. I get the occasional peeler on testing, but not
when I've cleaned the tyre and tube with washing up detergent.
TJ

On Apr 5, 7:01*am, somebody wrote:
What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? *Is it a good idea
to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? *I
am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.

Are any of the glueless patches any good? *I was thinking of the Park
glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.

Thanks!

Auto parts stores have big patch kits with numerous patches in them.
Even a big 4"x6" sheet that can be cut up into 24 1" square patches.
Enough patches to last years. And they sell big tubes of glue. REMA
patches? What a joke. Apparently the REC bicyclists are AIG
executives who got the government bailout money as bonuses. They love
to blow money like its going out of style.