Dura Ace 7700 Octalink bottom bracket... cures for clicking?

Yes, this is the old serviceable and adjustable model with roller and
cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
(purchased used on ebay) since Ultegras are no longer available. I
live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take nearly
all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral displacement.
Seemed like it should last a very long time if well maintained.

For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right crank.
There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started making
a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only when
pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed that I'd
tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is probably
ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the spindle itself
where there is evidence of the rollers running on it, but no scratches
or pitting.

Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
still clicks... regardless of play. Loose or tight makes no
difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly wore a
looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle and
this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and regreasing
didn't change a thing.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to make
the noise go away?

Ron Ruff wrote:
Yes, this is the old serviceable and adjustable model with roller and
cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
(purchased used on ebay)

don't you think that might be an issue???


since Ultegras are no longer available. I
live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take nearly
all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral displacement.
Seemed like it should last a very long time if well maintained.

For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right crank.
There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started making
a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only when
pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed that I'd
tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is probably
ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the spindle itself
where there is evidence of the rollers running on it, but no scratches
or pitting.

Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
still clicks... regardless of play.

then it's not the play!


Loose or tight makes no
difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly wore a
looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle and
this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and regreasing
didn't change a thing.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to make
the noise go away?

i've used this spindle extensively over about 10 years and have never
had any problems with it.

as for diagnosis, you have to be methodical. assuming something and
trying to itch that same scratch over and over, as you've shown, isn't
going to work.

On Apr 30, 10:07*pm, jim beam wrote:
then it's not the play!

I thought I mentioned that.

as for diagnosis, you have to be methodical. *assuming something and
trying to itch that same scratch over and over, as you've shown, isn't
going to work.

The only assumption I'm making is that it clicks. I'm speculating that
it could be the loose cones since I don't have any better ideas. I've
read several reports that claim over-tightening will ruin one for
good, but no mention of what actually gets ruined. What itch am I
scratching over and over? Taking it apart and inspecting it twice?

BTW, the shell has been faced and the play in the bearing seems very
consistent as it is turned (ie no loose and tight spots). I use
plumber's tape on the threads of the cup so it seems unlikely that it
would be moving around, and the lockring is tight and stays that way.

rruff schreef:
On Apr 30, 10:07 pm, jim beam wrote:
then it's not the play!

I thought I mentioned that.

as for diagnosis, you have to be methodical. assuming something and
trying to itch that same scratch over and over, as you've shown, isn't
going to work.

The only assumption I'm making is that it clicks. I'm speculating that
it could be the loose cones since I don't have any better ideas. I've
read several reports that claim over-tightening will ruin one for
good, but no mention of what actually gets ruined. What itch am I
scratching over and over? Taking it apart and inspecting it twice?

BTW, the shell has been faced and the play in the bearing seems very
consistent as it is turned (ie no loose and tight spots). I use
plumber's tape on the threads of the cup so it seems unlikely that it
would be moving around, and the lockring is tight and stays that way.



Are you sure it is the bottom bracket? I have been chasing a similar
click of one of my bikes. Only appears when pushing hard or riding out
of the saddle. I swapped the rear wheel, nothing changed. Regreased and
reinstalled the Campy BB cartridge, nothing changed. Then I tried to
introduce the clicks by bending frame, handlebar, fork etc. and listing
carefully. And there it was..... the ferrules in the cablestops. Put
some grease on and the clicks are gone.

Lou

Lou Holtman wrote:
rruff schreef:
On Apr 30, 10:07 pm, jim beam wrote:
then it's not the play!

I thought I mentioned that.

as for diagnosis, you have to be methodical. assuming something and
trying to itch that same scratch over and over, as you've shown, isn't
going to work.

The only assumption I'm making is that it clicks. I'm speculating that
it could be the loose cones since I don't have any better ideas. I've
read several reports that claim over-tightening will ruin one for
good, but no mention of what actually gets ruined. What itch am I
scratching over and over? Taking it apart and inspecting it twice?

BTW, the shell has been faced and the play in the bearing seems very
consistent as it is turned (ie no loose and tight spots). I use
plumber's tape on the threads of the cup so it seems unlikely that it
would be moving around, and the lockring is tight and stays that way.



Are you sure it is the bottom bracket? I have been chasing a similar
click of one of my bikes. Only appears when pushing hard or riding out
of the saddle. I swapped the rear wheel, nothing changed. Regreased and
reinstalled the Campy BB cartridge, nothing changed. Then I tried to
introduce the clicks by bending frame, handlebar, fork etc. and listing
carefully. And there it was..... the ferrules in the cablestops. Put
some grease on and the clicks are gone.

Lou


my point exactly.

In article 21f7e97b-7bd2-4ed9-9719-
,
says...


Yes, this is the old serviceable and adjustable model with roller and
cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
(purchased used on ebay) since Ultegras are no longer available. I
live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take
nearly
all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral displacement.
Seemed like it should last a very long time if well maintained.

For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right
crank.
There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started
making
a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only when
pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed that
I'd
tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is probably
ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the spindle itself
where there is evidence of the rollers running on it, but no
scratches
or pitting.

Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
still clicks... regardless of play. Loose or tight makes no
difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly
wore a
looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle
and
this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and regreasing
didn't change a thing.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to
make
the noise go away?

Check your Chain ring bolts. Take each one off, lightly grease, and
tighten them back on. This can cause clicking.

Adjusting the 7700 BB is an art form. I find it best to install the BB
with both grease and tape after greasing the internal bearings.
Before tightening the adjustable side install your crank, it will give
you more leverage to check for play. Tighten non-drive side just
until there is no play, but no more.

Any wear showing on the spindle or races isn't good, these must be
smooth. The DA7700 BB requires periodic maintenance, especially in
bad weather. Roller bearings are very nice but this design was
perhaps overly engineered.

Thanks for all the replies.

I installed a different spindle+cones and it has been quiet for ~20
miles... but it usually takes awhile for the noise to return. The
cable stops do make a ticking sound at times, but this is a different
noise... at any rate I greased them. If the clicking returns I'll try
greasing the chainring bolts (they are tight). Pedals have been
removed and threads greased, and they feel very smooth. I tried using
a different set of wheels earlier and this had no effect.

The fact that messing with the BB brings temporary relief indicates
that something around there is the cause. I hope it isn't the crank-
spindle interface. It is a series of clicks (with a creaking element)
that only occurs at the bottom of the left side when force is very
high. I tried getting it to happen by pushing hard on the pedals
(bottom of stroke) when coasting, but it didn't work.

On Apr 30, 10:21*am, Ron Ruff wrote:
Yes, this is the old serviceable and adjustable model with roller and
cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
(purchased used on ebay) since Ultegras are no longer available. I
live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take nearly
all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral displacement.
Seemed like it should last a very long time if well maintained.

For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right crank.
There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started making
a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only when
pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed that I'd
tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is probably
ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the spindle itself
where there is evidence of the rollers running on it, but no scratches
or pitting.

Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
still clicks... regardless of play. Loose or tight makes no
difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly wore a
looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle and
this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and regreasing
didn't change a thing.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to make
the noise go away?

Upgrade to the 105 level BB. Same as Ultegra with a black spindle.
Lots of grease inside the BB shell and inside the LH cup.

On May 1, 1:44*pm, rruff wrote:
Thanks for all the replies.

I installed a different spindle+cones and it has been quiet for ~20
miles... but it usually takes awhile for the noise to return. The
cable stops do make a ticking sound at times, but this is a different
noise... at any rate I greased them. If the clicking returns I'll try
greasing the chainring bolts (they are tight). Pedals have been
removed and threads greased, and they feel very smooth. I tried using
a different set of wheels earlier and this had no effect.

The fact that messing with the BB brings temporary relief indicates
that something around there is the cause. I hope it isn't the crank-
spindle interface. It is a series of clicks (with a creaking element)
that only occurs at the bottom of the left side when force is very
high. I tried getting it to happen by pushing hard on the pedals
(bottom of stroke) when coasting, but it didn't work.

Make sure you grease the spindle end and tighten it till it
stops..tight!

wrote:
Ron Ruff wrote:

Yes, this is the old serviceable and adjustable model with roller
and cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
(purchased used on ebay) since Ultegras are no longer available. I
live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take
nearly all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral
displacement. Seemed like it should last a very long time if well
maintained.

For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right crank.
There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started
making a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only
when pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed
that I'd tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is
probably ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the
spindle itself where there is evidence of the rollers running on it,
but no scratches or pitting.

Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
still clicks... regardless of play. Loose or tight makes no
difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly wore a
looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle
and this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and
regreasing didn't change a thing.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to
make the noise go away?

The Octalink crank attachment, its feet of clay, has no preload
between the facets of the square spline and therefore frets

incorrect jobst. you have failed to observe the fine details of the
design and therefore are missing the fact that the teeth are radiused at
the root. spindle teeth "deform to fit" with their corresponding
partners on the crank thus making a perfectly snug fit which does /NOT/
fret. as you would know if you'd bothered to use one of these things
yourself, bothered to study one after a period in service, and could pay
attention to the fact that after more than a decade of use, the octalink
interface survives use in the field most successfully with NONE of the
symptoms you suppose.


(tiny
motion] elastically, even if it has no actual backlash in torque.
Aluminum parts against steel are a classic of this syndrome because
the softer aluminum frets on the steel, and instead of developing
rouge as steel-on-steel does, it makes (hard) aluminum oxide whose
repeated fracture often makes a sharp click.

rubbish.



I haven't heard your BB, but I have heard such clicks. This may be
your problem and the reason why Shimano gave up on Octalink.

but they haven't.

a. they still sell it.
b. they still use the interface on their integrated spindle designs.

why don't you bother to check facts jobst? is it laziness or just plain
idiot dogma?


Elastic
backlash (absence of press fit) is a phenomenon that escapes
recognition in various mechanical devices and gets passed over in
time, even when the reason is not recognized.

except by shimano who effectively employ it as described above. and
whose usage apparently can't be acknowledged by "experts" who can't be
bothered to get off their ass and actually look.