Making Campagnolo 9/10 Speed Rear Hub/Cassette Compatible with Dura-Ace 7 Speed

In an earlier post I described how I wanted to temporarily take parts off an
old bike (1988 vintage Dura-Ace 7 speed) and move them to a new one for a
while. The eventual goal is to turn the new bike into a Campagnolo 10 speed
(when funds allow), and return the old parts back to their original bike.

The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette compatibility. My
current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge sealed bearing hub with
a 7 speed freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold
setting the rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that approach
doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that converting that hub to
130mm spacing would be fairly expensive and difficult. Since my longer term
goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I don't have a problem investing in a
Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to work
with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a 10 speed
setup when I make the big switch latter on.

It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert from 9 speed
Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From looking at some reference tables on
Sheldon Brown's website (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears
that Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the same
center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm). If this is correct, it
seems natural to do this conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets that
remain on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also seen a seller of
this kit suggest it could also be used to convert from Campagnolo 10 speed
to Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension) since the cog
width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same. Starting from 10 speed
has the advantage that I eventually end up with the cassette I want after
doing the total Campagnolo conversion latter on.

It appears like you'd want to start with a Veloce 10 speed cassette. The
most natural one to choose is the:

13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26.
My existing 7 speed freewheel is: 13-14-15-----17-----19-21----24.
So to create something similar,
I could use the following: 13-14-15-----17-----19-21-23-26,
from the Veloce, but not actually have the deraileur engage the 26.

Am I think about this in the right way? Also in doing the conversion, can
you eliminate any 2 of the existing sprockets or are there restrictions such
as being required to use the existing smallest sprocket?

Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10 speed chain?

rosco wrote:

In an earlier post I described how I wanted to temporarily take parts off an
old bike (1988 vintage Dura-Ace 7 speed) and move them to a new one for a
while. The eventual goal is to turn the new bike into a Campagnolo 10 speed
(when funds allow), and return the old parts back to their original bike.

The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette compatibility. My
current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge sealed bearing hub with
a 7 speed freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold
setting the rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that approach
doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that converting that hub to
130mm spacing would be fairly expensive and difficult.

Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would be a quick
and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the indexing on your
derailer, but it should work just fine.

Since my longer term
goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I don't have a problem investing in a
Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to work
with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a 10 speed
setup when I make the big switch latter on.

I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could be made to index OK with your
old Dura-Ace derailer and a 7-speed setup...might make a useful
intermediate option.

It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert from 9 speed
Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From looking at some reference tables on
Sheldon Brown's website (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears
that Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the same
center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

That's correct.

If this is correct, it
seems natural to do this conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets that
remain on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also seen a seller of
this kit suggest it could also be used to convert from Campagnolo 10 speed
to Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension) since the cog
width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same. Starting from 10 speed
has the advantage that I eventually end up with the cassette I want after
doing the total Campagnolo conversion latter on.


Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99% sure they fit
on the newer hubs.

Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10 speed chain?

Use a chain that matches the spacing. I'd go with a Sram PC58 for this
application.

Sheldon "Save Ya Money" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| It is amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:51:41 GMT, "rosco"
wrote:

Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to work
with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a 10 speed
setup when I make the big switch latter on.

My memory is not so great but I think that is you use Campy 10
shifters and a Shimano rear derailleur you will shift the 7sp ok.

"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
rosco wrote:


The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette compatibility.
My
current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge sealed bearing hub
with
a 7 speed freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold
setting the rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that
approach
doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that converting that hub
to
130mm spacing would be fairly expensive and difficult.


Sheldon Replied:
Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would be a quick
and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the indexing on your
derailer, but it should work just fine.

That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle protrusion of about
4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in the dropout on
the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual locknut equivalent on the existing
cartridge sealed bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when the
skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns with only a 2.75 mm axlw
protrustion, and that loose 2mm washers wouldn't be grippy against the
dropout in the same sense?


Since my longer term
goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I don't have a problem investing in a
Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to
work
with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a 10 speed
setup when I make the big switch latter on.


Sheldon Replied:
I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could be made to index OK with your
old Dura-Ace derailer and a 7-speed setup...might make a useful
intermediate option.

Since I'm looking to save money, my primary interest is in having this stuff
work with my existing Dura-Ace downtube shifters and deraileurs. The
brifters will come latter on when I move the whole thing to Campagnolo 10
speed.

It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert from 9 speed
Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From looking at some reference tables
on
Sheldon Brown's website (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears
that Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the same
center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

Sheldon Replied:
That's correct.


If this is correct, it
seems natural to do this conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets
that
remain on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also seen a seller
of
this kit suggest it could also be used to convert from Campagnolo 10
speed
to Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension) since the
cog
width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same. Starting from 10
speed
has the advantage that I eventually end up with the cassette I want
after
doing the total Campagnolo conversion latter on.


Sheldon Replied:
Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99% sure they fit
on the newer hubs.

I believe any 1998 and latter Campagnolo 8-speed cassettes will work.
Didn't they change their spline pattern in 1997? If I could pick up an
inexpensive cassette that might be a reasonable possibility. The ones
Harris lists (via QBP) are about $60. A 10 speed Veloce cassette is about
$100 and a Wheels Shift-8 kit is about $30. With this approach, at the end
of the day (after the complete conversion to Campagnolo 10 spd) I end up
with a cassette I'll continue to use and only have expended the $30 for the
Shift-8 kit.


Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10 speed chain?

Use a chain that matches the spacing. I'd go with a Sram PC58 for this
application.

Sheldon "Save Ya Money" Brown

rosco wrote:

The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette compatibility.

My

current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge sealed bearing hub
with a 7 speed freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable materials,
so cold setting the rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that
approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that
converting that hub
to 130mm spacing would be fairly expensive and difficult.

I suggested:

Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would be a quick
and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the indexing on your
derailer, but it should work just fine.

So rosco goes:

That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle protrusion of about
4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in the dropout on
the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual locknut equivalent on the existing
cartridge sealed bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when the
skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns with only a 2.75 mm axlw
protrustion, and that loose 2mm washers wouldn't be grippy against the
dropout in the same sense?

I'm assuming that your 130 mm frame has vertical dropouts, as almost all
do. In that case there's no issue whatever with this, there's more than
enough axle protrusion.

Since my longer term
goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I don't have a problem investing in a
Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to
work with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a 10 speed
setup when I make the big switch latter on.


Sheldon Replied:
I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could be made to index OK with your
old Dura-Ace derailer and a 7-speed setup...might make a useful
intermediate option.

Since I'm looking to save money, my primary interest is in having this stuff
work with my existing Dura-Ace downtube shifters and deraileurs. The
brifters will come latter on when I move the whole thing to Campagnolo 10
speed.

If you're doing it piecemeal, as you suggest, you the cost of a pair of
Campagnolo brifters is comparable to the cost of a new rear wheel, and
gives more benefit in the short run.

It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert from 9 speed
Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From looking at some reference tables
on
Sheldon Brown's website (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears
that Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the same
center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

Sheldon Replied:
That's correct.

If this is correct, it
seems natural to do this conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets
that remain on the cassette. Do I have this right?

I would guess that you'd be able to use all 8 with your downtube
shifters. Shimano lever-type shifters can usually go past the last
click, and the lowest gear would be indexed by the low-gear limit stop
rather than by a detent in the shifter. This used to be a popular
upgrade in the MTB world to make 7-speed thumb shifters work with
8-speed cassettes.


Instead of a 10-speed cassette and a Wheels spacer kit, I suggested:

Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99% sure they fit
on the newer hubs.


I believe any 1998 and latter Campagnolo 8-speed cassettes will work.
Didn't they change their spline pattern in 1997? If I could pick up an
inexpensive cassette that might be a reasonable possibility. The ones
Harris lists (via QBP) are about $60. A 10 speed Veloce cassette is about
$100 and a Wheels Shift-8 kit is about $30. With this approach, at the end
of the day (after the complete conversion to Campagnolo 10 spd) I end up
with a cassette I'll continue to use and only have expended the $30 for the
Shift-8 kit.

You would presumably be buying an "8-speed" chain to use with the
re-spaced cassette. Then, when you do finally make the upgrade to 10
youll need to buy a new chain anyway.

I you go with the spacer option, this chain will then be used on a
cassette consiting of 2 new and 8 used sprockets. Also, this option
involves the short-term outlay of $130 vs $60 for my suggestion.

If you go with the 8-speed cassette, in the long run you'll be spending
$30 more, but when you do the final upgrade you'll have an all new 10
speed cassette to go with your new chain.

I guess this comes down to how long you expect to ride the bike in the
intermediate setup.

Another consideration is the available gearing. Presumably you have a
desired gear range to suit your conditions. If you buy a 10-speed with
that range then remove two of the sprockets, you'll either have
inadequate range or unpleasant gaps in your shift sequence.

Sheldon "Choices, Choices..." Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through |
| conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Thank you Sheldon.

Your reasoning makes sense.

I'll take this approach...

Take my existing rear wheel and put the 2mm washers on and see how that
works. If that works OK, that will be the least expensive intermediate
setup possible as all of my existing components move over with only needing
a $20ish bottom bracket.

If I need to go to a Campagnolo rear wheel, I'll then get the $60 Record 8
speed cassette as you suggest.

"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would be a quick
and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the indexing on your
derailer, but it should work just fine.

rosco wrote:
That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle protrusion of about
4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in the dropout on
the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual locknut equivalent on the existing
cartridge sealed bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when the
skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns with only a 2.75 mm axlw
protrustion, and that loose 2mm washers wouldn't be grippy against the
dropout in the same sense?

I explained this to you on the telephone yesterday in
exactly the words Sheldon uses. The end of the axle need
only locate itself within the frame end (drop out). The
locknut on one face and the skewer on the other actually
clamp to the bicycle. The axle stub is not a load-bearing
part. Your Mavic hub is neither simple nor cheap to respace.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971