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Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever



 
 
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  #71  
Old December 15th 10, 04:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Fred Flintstein
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Posts: 1,038
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On 12/14/2010 6:03 PM, Fred wrote:
On Dec 14, 12:44 pm, Fred Flintstein
wrote:
On 12/14/2010 11:58 AM, A. Dumas wrote:

Fred wrote:
anyway, what he said wasn't the point


It is now.


John Lieswyn called me a moron once.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4bbb247bbf2e47

Fred Flintstein


Well, are you?

Fred


Dumbass,

At times. But I try not to broadcast it too much.

Fred Flintstein
Ads
  #72  
Old December 15th 10, 06:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Carl Sundquist[_2_]
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Posts: 129
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On Dec 14, 1:24*am, yirgster wrote:
On Dec 10, 5:56*am, Anton Berlin wrote:



On Dec 9, 8:33*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote: Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.


But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.


Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.


(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)


On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote:


Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.


But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.


Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.


(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)


I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.


But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.


The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.


Exactly ! *How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with? *Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?


This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s. *The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity) *and sent to international events.


Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.


**** Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.


I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.


From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.


That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.


If you or even he wants to **** on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.


I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.


The race is with ourselves. *The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.


And independent ****ers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton *make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.


I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and *"team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
****s out there.


So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.


Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
Borysewicz' book, Bicycle Road Racing:

- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do. *There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...

- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory. *After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros. *That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."


What this shows is that Grewal never really viewed Phinney, Kiefel,
and probably Rogers as teammates. He barely made it to the start line
in time (in a manner of speaking) due to the Ma-Huang issue. Also, the
other three were on higher profile, better funded teams. The TTT squad
were also comprised completely of Slurpees and Raleighs. Grewal was an
outside man.

On the other hand, Grewal has a tremendous respect for Len Pettyjohn,
as does anyone who has ever known Len. But in the Olympics, like
Grewal, Len didn't owe anything to anyone. So in races with
Pettyjohn's American Savings/Dia Compe/Denver Spoke team, Grewal had
loyalty.
  #73  
Old December 15th 10, 08:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
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Posts: 4,044
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On Dec 14, 7:22*am, Fred wrote:
On Dec 14, 1:53*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:









On Dec 12, 6:33*pm, Fred wrote:


First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group. *It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did. *In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.


Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb. *He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass. *All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.


Fred


And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!


Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...

anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.

Fred


I need closure on this anecdote.
  #74  
Old December 15th 10, 09:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,044
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On Dec 14, 9:31*pm, Carl Sundquist wrote:
On Dec 14, 1:24*am, yirgster wrote:









On Dec 10, 5:56*am, Anton Berlin wrote:


On Dec 9, 8:33*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote: Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.


But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.


Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.


(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)


On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote:


Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.


But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.


Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.


(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)


I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.


But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.


The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.


Exactly ! *How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with? *Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?


This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s. *The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity) *and sent to international events.


Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.


**** Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.


I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.


From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.


That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.


If you or even he wants to **** on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.


I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.


The race is with ourselves. *The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.


And independent ****ers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton *make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.


I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and *"team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
****s out there.


So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.


Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
Borysewicz' book, Bicycle Road Racing:


- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do. *There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...


- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory. *After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros. *That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."


What this shows is that Grewal never really viewed Phinney, Kiefel,
and probably Rogers as teammates. He barely made it to the start line
in time (in a manner of speaking) due to the Ma-Huang issue. Also, the
other three were on higher profile, better funded teams. The TTT squad
were also comprised completely of Slurpees and Raleighs. Grewal was an
outside man.

On the other hand, Grewal has a tremendous respect for Len Pettyjohn,
as does anyone who has ever known Len. But in the Olympics, like
Grewal, Len didn't owe anything to anyone. So in races with
Pettyjohn's American Savings/Dia Compe/Denver Spoke team, Grewal had
loyalty.


Dear Carl, this was an insightful and fascinating analysis of bike
racing informed by first-hand experiences. Why did you post it in rbr?
  #75  
Old December 15th 10, 01:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Beloved Fred No. 1
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Posts: 327
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
I need closure


http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/480006
  #76  
Old December 15th 10, 02:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
A. Dumas[_2_]
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Posts: 249
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

Fred wrote:
On Dec 14, 10:58 am, "A. Dumas" wrote:
Fred wrote:
anyway, what he said wasn't the point

It is now.


no it isn't.


I made it the point. RESPECT MY AUTHOROTAY!
  #77  
Old December 16th 10, 04:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
yirgster
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Posts: 130
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On Dec 14, 11:53*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
On Dec 14, 7:22*am, Fred wrote:



On Dec 14, 1:53*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


On Dec 12, 6:33*pm, Fred wrote:


First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group. *It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did. *In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.


Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb. *He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass. *All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.


Fred


And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!


Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...


anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.


Fred


I need closure on this anecdote.


See your or a shrink! Go on a six month silent retreat! Buy some good,
oops, can't say that. I can offer yet additional insightful, useful
suggestions.
  #78  
Old December 28th 10, 04:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Anton Berlin
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Posts: 3,381
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

Bump due to spam flood
  #79  
Old January 1st 16, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On Wednesday, December 8, 2010 at 6:58:09 PM UTC-5, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In his own, awesome words:

http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php...olympics-in-la

" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"

"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."

"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don't have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."

...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
saw the race.

I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.

There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
spitting on the camera man.

I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.


i will have you all know that Joker was on LSD also... this is how the sprinter lost to the mankie indian...

  #80  
Old January 17th 16, 08:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Davey Crockett[_12_]
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Posts: 60
Default Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

a écrit profondement:


On Wednesday, December 8, 2010 at 6:58:09 PM UTC-5, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
| In his own, awesome words:
|
|
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php...olympics-in-la
|
| " I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
| I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
|
| "Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
| filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
| hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
| downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
| pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
|
| "Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don't have
| any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
|
| ...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
| from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
| saw the race.
|
| I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
| down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
| is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
|
| There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
| spitting on the camera man.
|
| I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
| theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.

| i will have you all know that Joker was on LSD also... this is how the sprinter lost to the mankie indian...


On LSD?

Then he should have been doing a Flyer

Ryan --- Are you still around?

--
Davey Crockett says Check out the Vuelta
http://algarveservers.com/sportsite/
http://inconnu.freeshell.org/sportsite
http://bellacanela.com
 




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