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  #41  
Old September 12th 17, 12:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Road Discs

On 2017-09-11 15:56, wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:08:35 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-11 12:56,
wrote:

[...]

Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't
get bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI


We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly
part of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close
to Belgium where they have the worst roads.



Yes, you have a mountain. Drielandenpunt and it's 321.5m. The
Dutch insisted that the half meter was always mentioned.


... However the real famous mountains are only one day drive
away. One or two times a year I spend a week there and that for
almost 30 years so I did my share of climbing and descending.

He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3


Hey, my sister participated in the Maratona D'les Dolomites.


Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need
more than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2

So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a
mystery to me.


Ever since I rode a bike with disc brakes for the first time I
never looked back and any new bikes must have discs or I won't
buy.


Your youTube video gives a rough idea of an off-road ride. Now give
it three times the descent and using a CX bike you have NO
SUSPENSION.



We have some of those, but more than 3x. I use to ride those with my old
MTB but no sus so it gave me lower back pain. My L4-5-6 are pretty much
hosed.


... You have to keep yourself back on the saddle with
pressure on the bars by your hands. On a flat bar bike such as the
one you should it's plain that you can not have one or two fingers on
the levers but have your entire hand over the levers with your palms
pressing yourself back onto the saddle.


That would result in a predictable crash. You have to go behind the
saddle and "belly-ride" a bit. Else your CG would be way too much
forward and you'd have an endo, prontissimo. I usually have one or two
fingers on the brake levers. That's all you need with good hydraulic
disc brakes.


This idea that lou has of "riding over a bump" seems to ignore the
fact that you hit a bump at high speed and there is a sudden jar as
you strike the bump. Precisely how do you ride "over" such a bump.



You've got to stay loose, also with the hands a bit. Forcing the
handlebar and thus the bike to follow exactly the path you want it a
recipe for disaster when there are rocks where you don't know which ones
shift and which ones don't. Which is a common scenerios out here.


Looking over the edge of the rocky parts of your video down the side
of the mountain is the sort of descent I crashed on. Though the trail
wasn't covered with stones but instead 3-6" deep ditches running 70
or 80 degrees to the line of travel.


That cliff in the video has killed. Guy went over on his MTB, airborne,
smacked onto the rocks at the bottom :-(


I could no doubt ride down the Stelvio barely touching the brakes on
a rim brake bike. I ride down the north side of Mt Diablo and touch
the brakes very seldom and can pass most people including the Chris
Froome wannabes. I have watched them disappear into my rear view
sunglasses mounted mirror trying to keep up. Not because I'm
attempting to drop them but because they don't know how to ride
around other people and are dangerous. I ride down several of the
other hills in the area without even touching the brakes as the speed
goes above 40 mph.


On roads I do the same. Not on singletrack, there I try to keep it below
25mph. The older I get the lower my speeds while off-road.


I have raced motorcycles semi-professionally and was a professional
flat track mechanic. I have a great deal better knowledge of
cornering than most people. The sheer egotism of people that could
say that someone they don't know anything about doesn't know how to
ride is pretty funny.

I wouldn't have thought to have criticized lou's knowledge of riding
until he made comments like he has.

You like disk brakes and that's fine. I suggest that if you ride them
much on a road bike you will soon change your mind.


Well, I have also ridden them on the road on a friend's titanium bike
and I must say it was the same as with the MTB. It has affirmed my
position of never buying a new bike with rim brakes ever again. It must
have discs or I won't buy.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #42  
Old September 12th 17, 12:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Road Discs

On 2017-09-11 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:08:35 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-11 12:56, wrote:

[...]

Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't
get bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI


We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly
part of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close
to Belgium where they have the worst roads.



Yes, you have a mountain. Drielandenpunt and it's 321.5m. The
Dutch insisted that the half meter was always mentioned.


... However the real famous mountains are only one day drive
away. One or two times a year I spend a week there and that for
almost 30 years so I did my share of climbing and descending.

He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3


Hey, my sister participated in the Maratona D'les Dolomites.


Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need
more than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2

So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a
mystery to me.


Ever since I rode a bike with disc brakes for the first time I
never looked back and any new bikes must have discs or I won't
buy.



My two surviving bikes have discs -- one mechanical (commuter) and
one hydraulic (gravel). In dry weather on the road, hydraulic brakes
are overkill -- and in fact, I prefer dual pivots in dry weather
because they are simple, work well and never drag unless I break a
spoke, which is rare.


Yes, on a road bike and maybe even CX I'd accept mechanical disc brakes.
Never on a MTB though.


Rim brakes are lighter, simpler (no bleeding, etc.), cheaper (pad
costs), less noisy and great at stopping. Discs are better in wet
weather, in slop and trail descending where braking is used to steer
and grades are above 30%. They certainly make sense on a foul weather
bike or mountain bike.

My main reason for having a disc commuter is rim wear. Six months of
riding in the rain will wear out rims after a few years (or less). In
the 30 years of commuting before getting discs, I stopped just fine
but wore out rims.


That's the point most people do not calculate in, rim wear. Also, pads
aren't more expensive for disc brakes if you buy Asian. The last ones
cost me $2/pair. Versus $4/par for the cheapest Clarks rim pads which
wear a whole lot faster.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #43  
Old September 12th 17, 01:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,041
Default Road Discs

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.


Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.

Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?
  #44  
Old September 12th 17, 02:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Road Discs

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:18:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.


Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.

Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?


Because CF disc forks explode, leading to huge loss of life -- second only to heart disease as a cause of death in the United States. Where have you been? Mars?

Really, though, I don't know where all these "serious riders" are. I've seen zero Ti disc bikes with CroMo forks. I'll keep a closer eye on the racks at work. Last weekend, my riding cohort of engineers and industry folks were all riding CF forks, although one was riding a Ti frame last week -- and one had high-end steel. All were using rim brakes, except me on my gravel pig. I was getting throttled on the Saltzman Road climb, even though its a gravel road. Waaah! Get back here. I've got a gravel bike. I'm going to kick your ass!

-- Jay Beattie.





  #45  
Old September 12th 17, 03:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Road Discs

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 16:53:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:25:56 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 9/11/2017 7:54 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:11:08 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 9/9/2017 3:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

At one place I owned I installed a device that automatically closes the
garage door after three minutes unless you disable it. I used the timer
for the light bulbs on the garage door opener to trigger a relay that
shorted the open/close terminals momentarily. I need to build another
one since I've done the same thing as you on occasion.

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to
ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake
model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group
to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying
your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a
dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There
would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start
with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes
-- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the
way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

I SPIT on rim brakes.

Go for a titanium frame with disc brakes. https://www.deanbikes.com/


Yeah, that's a really great idea when just the couplers on that bike are $900. For my entire totally reconditioned Pinarello I'll have less with new Campy wheels and a record group.


Jay is not price-sensitive. All he has to do is bill a few more hours to
pay for a Dean Titanium. And the couplers are not required.


Even if I were made of money, I wouldn't spend a ton on a bike. I'm getting a pro deal on my next bike because I do work for the manufacturer -- and its a great bike. It will be my designated fast bike (or as-fast-as-I-get bike). It's replacing my SuperSix, RIP.

-- Jay Beattie.


Isn't that what Tom was talking about? Taking part of your pay in
freebies from the company you are working for :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #46  
Old September 12th 17, 03:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Road Discs

On 9/11/2017 4:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:

My two surviving bikes have discs -- one mechanical (commuter) and one hydraulic (gravel). In dry weather on the road, hydraulic brakes are overkill -- and in fact, I prefer dual pivots in dry weather because they are simple, work well and never drag unless I break a spoke, which is rare.


I'd not get hydraulic disc brakes on a road bike, even on a mountain
bike mechanical discs are just fine.

Do you have descents like Kings Mountain Road or Conzelman Road in
Oregon? Rims get very hot on those descents.
  #47  
Old September 12th 17, 03:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Road Discs

On 9/11/2017 6:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:18:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.


Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.

Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?


Because CF disc forks explode, leading to huge loss of life -- second only to heart disease as a cause of death in the United States. Where have you been? Mars?


Well-stated. Pretty much what is said he
https://www.rivbike.com/products/carbonomas-steel-fork-1-1-8-threadless-curved


  #48  
Old September 12th 17, 03:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Road Discs

On 9/11/2017 6:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:18:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.


Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.

Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?


Because CF disc forks explode, leading to huge loss of life -- second only to heart disease as a cause of death in the United States. Where have you been? Mars?

Really, though, I don't know where all these "serious riders" are. I've seen zero Ti disc bikes with CroMo forks.


True, most riders use the CF fork that comes with the Ti bicycle. The
suggestion to switch to a CroMo fork was to prevent injury should the CF
fork fail, as they are prone to do.
  #50  
Old September 12th 17, 04:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Road Discs

On 9/9/2017 6:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!


[2nd try to get Eternal September to post this:]

Downsides I've seen with discs: More more possibilities of weird
problems - like my riding buddy whose disc on his brand new bike was
making weird noises (from scraping) any time he pushed hard on a climb.
Took three tries for the shop to fix it.

More possibility of scraping in general. Saw that on another bike
tourist's disc brake bike, a constant "Shh - shh - shh". He ignored the
sound. It would have driven me nuts.

Sudden brake pad wear, down to no brakes. Happened to one bike tourist
we hosted, on a long hilly tour. If you get discs, carry spare pads.

Far less lever force, which to me is a disadvantage. I've almost never
needed to brake super-hard in an emergency; but if and when it comes up,
I don't want a bike that locks its wheels with little lever pull. It
would be like my dad's 1959 Pontiac, with hair-trigger power brakes.

As you've said, discs have certain advantages. But it sounds like those
advantages don't apply for this bike. And as a curmudgeon, I'm
duty-bound to note that cyclists have managed the corresponding
disadvantage of rim brakes for decades and decades.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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