Are 15g alloy nipples thicker than 14g?

Chalo Colina wrote:

I would think that hardness of the metal would be a factor in
rounding of the flats, not wall thickness. Even brass nipples get
rounded off.

In my observation, 14ga brass nipples round before 15ga brass
nipples do. I think this is because the precipitating failure is
the inward crushing of the nipple wall.

When truing a stubborn wheel, I sometimes stop turning a nipple when
I feel it fail but before the wrench slips off the flat. When this
happens, I can observe that the formerly square part of the nipple
has been smashed into a more or less rhomboid cross-section. That's
not a failure of the wrench flat alone, but of the tubular structure
of the spoke nipple.

All that torque is between spoke nipple and rim, rather than threads.
Therefore, put a drop of oil in each of these interfaces before
turning the wrench. Before beginning to build a new wheel, lubricate
spoke threads, en masse, with 90W hypoid oil to keep spoke twist as
low as possible, especially with swaged spokes.

Jobst Brandt

In article ,
says...


On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 12:41:32 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:50:23 -0800, RS
wrote:

Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a 14g.
alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't have 15g
nipples that I can compare. Just curious.

Dear RS,

A) Maybe the same weights, just different rounding?

One company may call even hefty 14.9 gram spoke nipples "14-gram" to
emphasize the enormous weight savings.

Another company may call even light 14.5 gram spoke nipples "15
grams"
to emphasize how strong they are.

(Or neither company may care about the 1-gram difference, and both
would be astonished to hear that anyone else worries about it.)

B) Exterior dimensions? Longer flats reduce weight.

C) Interior dimensions? Longer unthreaded sections reduce weight.

D) Different alloys? A difference of ~15/14 is ~7%. One company may
use a less dense alloy for that crucial 1-gram difference, while
another prefers a denser but stronger or more corrosion-resistant
alloy.

(Or one stodgy company uses the same tired old alloy that they found
cheap back in the 1900s, while another hip new company uses a cool
cutting-edge alloy that doesn't wear out their tools as fast.)

MatWeb lists ~700 aluminum alloys for the 1xx through 7xxx series.

Aluminum density in grams/cc:

2.71 to 2.70 for 1xxx 0.4%
2.84 to 2.54 for 2xxx 11.8%
2.75 to 2.70 for 3xxx 1.9%
2.92 to 2.50 for 4xxx 16.8%
2.72 to 2.54 for 5xxx 7.1%
2.74 to 2.68 for 6xxx 2.2%
2.90 to 2.72 for 7xxx 6.6%

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


Aaargh!

Sometimes it pays to think before getting lost in minutiae.

I mistook 14g and 15g for grams, not gauge.

Anyone who wants to tease me can use this link in the futu

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...f75ed1131c3ea3

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I appreciate your efforts though you did loose me pretty quickly. Thanks
RS

On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:19:35 -0800, RS wrote:

In article ,
says...


On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 12:41:32 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:50:23 -0800, RS
wrote:

Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a 14g.
alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't have 15g
nipples that I can compare. Just curious.

Dear RS,

A) Maybe the same weights, just different rounding?

One company may call even hefty 14.9 gram spoke nipples "14-gram" to
emphasize the enormous weight savings.

Another company may call even light 14.5 gram spoke nipples "15
grams"
to emphasize how strong they are.

(Or neither company may care about the 1-gram difference, and both
would be astonished to hear that anyone else worries about it.)

B) Exterior dimensions? Longer flats reduce weight.

C) Interior dimensions? Longer unthreaded sections reduce weight.

D) Different alloys? A difference of ~15/14 is ~7%. One company may
use a less dense alloy for that crucial 1-gram difference, while
another prefers a denser but stronger or more corrosion-resistant
alloy.

(Or one stodgy company uses the same tired old alloy that they found
cheap back in the 1900s, while another hip new company uses a cool
cutting-edge alloy that doesn't wear out their tools as fast.)

MatWeb lists ~700 aluminum alloys for the 1xx through 7xxx series.

Aluminum density in grams/cc:

2.71 to 2.70 for 1xxx 0.4%
2.84 to 2.54 for 2xxx 11.8%
2.75 to 2.70 for 3xxx 1.9%
2.92 to 2.50 for 4xxx 16.8%
2.72 to 2.54 for 5xxx 7.1%
2.74 to 2.68 for 6xxx 2.2%
2.90 to 2.72 for 7xxx 6.6%

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


Aaargh!

Sometimes it pays to think before getting lost in minutiae.

I mistook 14g and 15g for grams, not gauge.

Anyone who wants to tease me can use this link in the futu

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...f75ed1131c3ea3

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I appreciate your efforts though you did lose me pretty quickly. Thanks
RS

Dear RS,

You could follow everyone else because they actually understood your
original post and addressed your question.

I baffled you by heading off in an utterly mistaken direction because
I misunderstood what you wrote (which was entirely my own careless
fault).

Thanks for being good-natured about my idiocy.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Jobst Brandt wrote:

Chalo Colina wrote:

When truing a stubborn wheel, I sometimes stop turning a nipple when
I feel it fail but before the wrench slips off the flat. *When this
happens, I can observe that the formerly square part of the nipple
has been smashed into a more or less rhomboid cross-section. *That's
not a failure of the wrench flat alone, but of the tubular structure
of the spoke nipple.

All that torque is between spoke nipple and rim, rather than threads.
Therefore, put a drop of oil in each of these interfaces before
turning the wrench. *Before beginning to build a new wheel, lubricate
spoke threads, en masse, with 90W hypoid oil to keep spoke twist as
low as possible, especially with swaged spokes.

I use grease, with a preference for moly grease. I roll the spoke
threads in a dab of grease, and I use a Q-tip to apply it to the rim
holes.

But the times I run into problems with rounding nipples are when
truing wheels that have accumulated corrosion or dirt in the rim
holes. Heavyweight oil might work for this situation, and penetrating
lube definitely would help, but usually I am trying not to make a mess
of a wheel with an installed tire. Typically this is a routine truing
job that surprises me with how hard the nipples must be wrenched
before they'll move.

Chalo

In article ,
says...


On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:19:35 -0800, RS
wrote:

In article ,
says...


On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 12:41:32 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:50:23 -0800, RS
wrote:

Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as
a
14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a
14g.
alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't have 15g
nipples that I can compare. Just curious.

Dear RS,

A) Maybe the same weights, just different rounding?

One company may call even hefty 14.9 gram spoke nipples "14-gram"
to
emphasize the enormous weight savings.

Another company may call even light 14.5 gram spoke nipples "15
grams"
to emphasize how strong they are.

(Or neither company may care about the 1-gram difference, and both
would be astonished to hear that anyone else worries about it.)

B) Exterior dimensions? Longer flats reduce weight.

C) Interior dimensions? Longer unthreaded sections reduce weight.

D) Different alloys? A difference of ~15/14 is ~7%. One company may
use a less dense alloy for that crucial 1-gram difference, while
another prefers a denser but stronger or more corrosion-resistant
alloy.

(Or one stodgy company uses the same tired old alloy that they found
cheap back in the 1900s, while another hip new company uses a cool
cutting-edge alloy that doesn't wear out their tools as fast.)

MatWeb lists ~700 aluminum alloys for the 1xx through 7xxx series.

Aluminum density in grams/cc:

2.71 to 2.70 for 1xxx 0.4%
2.84 to 2.54 for 2xxx 11.8%
2.75 to 2.70 for 3xxx 1.9%
2.92 to 2.50 for 4xxx 16.8%
2.72 to 2.54 for 5xxx 7.1%
2.74 to 2.68 for 6xxx 2.2%
2.90 to 2.72 for 7xxx 6.6%

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


Aaargh!

Sometimes it pays to think before getting lost in minutiae.

I mistook 14g and 15g for grams, not gauge.

Anyone who wants to tease me can use this link in the futu


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...f75ed1131c3ea3

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I appreciate your efforts though you did lose me pretty quickly. Thanks

RS

Dear RS,

You could follow everyone else because they actually understood your
original post and addressed your question.

I baffled you by heading off in an utterly mistaken direction because
I misunderstood what you wrote (which was entirely my own careless
fault).

Thanks for being good-natured about my idiocy.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I always appreciate an intelligent effort to provide usefull information even if
you're initial read of my post was not right on point. You're only agenda was
to be helpfull and I appreciate that!

R Schiller wrote:

Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a
14g. alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't
have 15g nipples that I can compare. Just curious.

I have never seen any bicycle spoke nipples that are neither brass or
aluminum alloy. You must mean Aluminum spoke nipples, but pure
aluminum generally is not found on bicycles. I guess the distinction
arises from carbon and alloy steels, although not a metal, carbon is
also an alloying material. I think the misnomer "alloy" came to us
from England where the term is widely misused.

Jobst Brandt

wrote:
Chalo Colina wrote:

I would think that hardness of the metal would be a factor in
rounding of the flats, not wall thickness. Even brass nipples get
rounded off.

In my observation, 14ga brass nipples round before 15ga brass
nipples do. I think this is because the precipitating failure is
the inward crushing of the nipple wall.

When truing a stubborn wheel, I sometimes stop turning a nipple when
I feel it fail but before the wrench slips off the flat. When this
happens, I can observe that the formerly square part of the nipple
has been smashed into a more or less rhomboid cross-section. That's
not a failure of the wrench flat alone, but of the tubular structure
of the spoke nipple.

All that torque is between spoke nipple and rim, rather than threads.
Therefore, put a drop of oil in each of these interfaces before
turning the wrench. Before beginning to build a new wheel, lubricate
spoke threads, en masse, with 90W hypoid oil to keep spoke twist as
low as possible, especially with swaged spokes.


sorry, can we only buy d.t. spokes these days??? if not, then it's
butted spokes jobst, not "swaged". swaging is just one method of
achieving butting, the general term for all reduced section spokes.
other methods include drawing [which is not swaging] and grinding [which
is also not swaging]. for an "expert", you appear remarkably ignorant
of basic engineering terminology.

RS wrote:
Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
14g 12mm alloy nipple.

yes.

Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a 14g.
alloy nipple.

single loading, maybe. fatigue, to be determined because the internal
threading loads are different, and perhaps more concentrated.



I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't have 15g
nipples that I can compare. Just curious.

wrote:
R Schiller wrote:

Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a
14g. alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't
have 15g nipples that I can compare. Just curious.

I have never seen any bicycle spoke nipples that are neither brass or
aluminum alloy. You must mean Aluminum spoke nipples, but pure
aluminum generally is not found on bicycles.

facetious drivel. "alloy", as you well know, especially here on r.b.t
is an abbreviation for "aluminum alloy".


I guess the distinction
arises from carbon and alloy steels, although not a metal, carbon is
also an alloying material.

why jobst? amaze us.


I think the misnomer "alloy" came to us
from England where the term is widely misused.

just like you widely misuse the term "steel" when you're referring to
carbon steel, chrome steel, stainless steel, etc.???