Roundabouts

On Jan 31, 9:39*am, Bruce wrote:

What *would* make sense is for older drivers, including you, to drive
in the same way that has been taught to learners for some years, is
expected in driving tests (and indeed any alternative approach may
contribute towards a failure) and is clearly indicated in the figure
above Clause 186 in the Highway Code. *To do otherwise introduces
additional, unnecessary risk of a collision.

Maybe I'm a hybrid of old and new.

My view for straight on has tended to be...
1. If it's a dual carriageway, either lane is acceptable. You should
exit the roundabout in the lane you entered it in, unless you check it
is clear to pull in.
2. If it's a single carriageway, you should only go straight on from
the left lane. If you do from the right lane, you should treat it
exactly as if you were performing an overtake, i.e. only pull in if
it's clear to pull in and not assume anything about the actions of the
driver you are "overtaking".

That approach would seem to satisfy both types of driver. It's also
worth being aware of muppets who think the left lane is OK for left,
straight on *and right* when using the right lane for straight on.
Ideally always avoid being directly alongside another driver on a
roundabout if at all possible.

Neil

On Jan 31, 9:39*am, Bruce wrote:

Remember that ignorance of the current rules of the road (because they
have changed since you passed your test) is no excuse.

Don't think my posting worked so I'll try again.

I must be a hybrid of both types of driver.

IMO the best approach to dealing with both situations is to treat
going straight on on a single carriageway from the right lane as an
overtake - i.e. it is up to you, not the driver on the left, to ensure
you have enough space to safely pull in at your exit, and if there
isn't to drop behind the car you were attempting to "overtake" instead
of trying to cut in front of it. In a sense it is an overtake, as
there's no good reason to go straight on from the right lane if the
left lane is completely clear.

On a dual carriageway, I'd say you can go straight on from either lane
so long as you exit the roundabout in the lane you entered it (i.e.
left lane = straight on, into left lane, right lane = straight on,
into right lane). But in doing so beware of muppets turning right
from the left lane. Normally on major dual carriageways the lanes are
marked up to this effect.

Neil

Neil Williams wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:39*am, Bruce wrote:
What *would* make sense is for older drivers, including you, to drive
in the same way that has been taught to learners for some years, is
expected in driving tests (and indeed any alternative approach may
contribute towards a failure) and is clearly indicated in the figure
above Clause 186 in the Highway Code. *To do otherwise introduces
additional, unnecessary risk of a collision.

Maybe I'm a hybrid of old and new.

My view for straight on has tended to be...
1. If it's a dual carriageway, either lane is acceptable. You should
exit the roundabout in the lane you entered it in, unless you check it
is clear to pull in.
2. If it's a single carriageway, you should only go straight on from
the left lane. If you do from the right lane, you should treat it
exactly as if you were performing an overtake, i.e. only pull in if
it's clear to pull in and not assume anything about the actions of the
driver you are "overtaking".

That approach would seem to satisfy both types of driver. It's also
worth being aware of muppets who think the left lane is OK for left,
straight on *and right* when using the right lane for straight on.
Ideally always avoid being directly alongside another driver on a
roundabout if at all possible.


That all sounds sensible, Neil, but any deviation from what new
drivers have been taught for the last couple of decades (and are
expected to do on their driving test, or invite failure) carries a
risk. In the event of a collision, any deviation from this new norm
effectively puts the driver on the wrong side of the law and makes
them liable.

So my advice (not that anyone asked!) is always to use the left lane
when going straight on. Of course the fact that the majority of
drivers now seem to do this probably invites a minority of drivers to
gain advantage by using the 'wrong' lane, including some older drivers
who are unaware that the rules of the road have changed. But that's
life. ;-)

"Ian Smith" wrote in message
...
Yes, you make some valid points. I have no problems with using either
lane for straight on where allowed, prudent, and readily anticipated by
others. But it was my understanding that the original post criticised
those who ignore/disobey lane markings or signs, and thus invite conflict
in doing so.

I would always use the left lane on a single-lane-in-each-direction road if
I was going straight on, in the absence of any instructions to the contrary.

Where that default rule is over-ruled by advance lane-usage signs, those
signs need to be very clear and repeated several times, to allow plenty of
warning that it's *not* the default state.

On a dual carriageway where the exit is also two-lane, I may use Lane 2. If
the entry is dual and the exit is single (eg because the major road turns
left and I want the minor straight on road) I may use the right hand lane
and go all the way round so as to avoid a long queue of left-turning
traffic.

As the HC advises, I don't indicate on approach if I'm going straight ahead.
I may indicate left as I pass the previous (left) exit, though on a small
roundabout, there is very little time between passing that exit and taking
the straight on one - it is better to indicate late rather than early
because a premature left signal may make someone think I'm turning left and
pull out in front of me.

The difficulty is when the exit is not absolutely straight ahead because the
road curves in the last few yards before the give-way line: do you indicate
left if it leaves at 11 o clock position or right if it leaves at 1 o clock
position, with the possibility of people thinking I intend to take the
previous or following exit? I err on the side of not indicating in this
situation; my fiancee always indicates if the exit is a few degrees either
side of straight on (and moans at me for not doing the same). For example,
at this roundabout http://g.co/maps/pbs77 would you indicate right if you
were on the A64 and going north to continue on the A64 or left if going
south?

On Jan 31, 1:28*pm, "Mortimer" wrote:

The difficulty is when the exit is not absolutely straight ahead because the
road curves in the last few yards before the give-way line: do you indicate
left if it leaves at 11 o clock position or right if it leaves at 1 o clock
position, with the possibility of people thinking I intend to take the
previous or following exit?

Often, the exit that is termed "straight on" (usually the continuation
of the road you are approaching on) is indicated as a thicker line on
the signs, which helps in the decision.

On mini roundabouts, there often isn't time to switch from right to
left, and as there aren't usually multiple lanes (Hemel/Swindon aside)
this isn't a problem. But if you're going to leave a roundabout with
2 or more lanes (or one that's two or more car widths wide) while
indicating right you're taking a massive risk.

But I would go with you and say never, ever indicate left early - that
is inviting people to pull out in front of you. By contrast,
indicating right (while it might scare the driver to the right of you)
is a good way of saying "I don't want *this* exit" if you feel the
person to your right may have some doubt and cut across you or into
the side of you. There are lane-marked roundabouts (the A41-M25 one
being an example, I think) where an unusual marked layout may confuse
and this sort of thing helps make your intentions very clear. Another
situation where it might be useful is a 5- or 6-ways roundabout where
there are two turns that might be seen as "left" or "straight on".

Neil

On Jan 31, 12:28*pm, "Mortimer" wrote:
"Ian Smith" wrote in message

...

Yes, you make some valid points. I have no problems with using either
lane for straight on where allowed, prudent, and readily anticipated by
others. But it was my understanding that the original post criticised
those who ignore/disobey lane markings or signs, and thus invite conflict
in doing so.

I would always use the left lane on a single-lane-in-each-direction road if
I was going straight on, in the absence of any instructions to the contrary.

Where that default rule is over-ruled by advance lane-usage signs, those
signs need to be very clear and repeated several times, to allow plenty of
warning that it's *not* the default state.

On a dual carriageway where the exit is also two-lane, I may use Lane 2. If
the entry is dual and the exit is single (eg because the major road turns
left and I want the minor straight on road) I may use the right hand lane
and go all the way round so as to avoid a long queue of left-turning
traffic.

As the HC advises, I don't indicate on approach if I'm going straight ahead.
I may indicate left as I pass the previous (left) exit, though on a small
roundabout, there is very little time between passing that exit and taking
the straight on one - it is better to indicate late rather than early
because a premature left signal may make someone think I'm turning left and
pull out in front of me.

The difficulty is when the exit is not absolutely straight ahead because the
road curves in the last few yards before the give-way line: do you indicate
left if it leaves at 11 o clock position or right if it leaves at 1 o clock
position, with the possibility of people thinking I intend to take the
previous or following exit? I err on the side of not indicating in this
situation; my fiancee always indicates if the exit is a few degrees either
side of straight on (and moans at me for not doing the same). For example,
at this roundabouthttp://g.co/maps/pbs77would you indicate right if you
were on the A64 and going north to continue on the A64 or left if going
south?

In that instance I'd signal right approaching the roundabout if going
north. Going south I'd only signal to exit the roundabout. My logic
is that going north I'm clearly stating I'm not going left. Going
south, I'm going straight on. If this isn't correct, I am prepared to
listen.

On Jan 31, 2:49*pm, al Mossah wrote:

In that instance I'd signal right approaching the roundabout if going
north. *Going south I'd only signal to exit the roundabout. *My logic
is that going north I'm clearly stating I'm not going left. *Going
south, I'm going straight on. *If this isn't correct, I am prepared to
listen.

I'd usually base it on the sign.

http://g.co/maps/n34ma

to me would say (northbound) indicate right on approaching THEN change
to indicating left once I had passed the first exit. But I don't
think omitting the right indication would cause any confusion either,
as there are only two exits, and the "main" exit is clearly marked on
the sign.

What would be a problem would be:-
1. Indicating left on approaching the roundabout - people would
correctly think you'd be taking the B1261 and this could[1] cause an
accident.
2. Indicating right but NOT switching to a left indication before
leaving the roundabout. This causes a reduction in "bandwidth" of the
roundabout, because anyone approaching from the north would have to
assume you were going to continue all the way round. This is a big
bugbear in Milton Keynes when it is busy, and it alone causes
congestion!

Going southbound, either indicating left on approaching the roundabout
(as it's the first exit) or indicating left a short way round the
roundabout (as it's more or less straight on) would both get the
message across, and neither should cause any confusion. Indicating
right would mean you want the B1261.

[1] Peoples' signalling is unreliable enough that I tend to be looking
for other things as well, like them turning their wheels past the
point where they could *not* take the exit.

Neil

On Jan 31, 4:14*pm, Neil Williams wrote:

2. Indicating right but NOT switching to a left indication

To add to that, the Highway Code allows, if I recall, for you not to
switch to a left indication if there isn't time. However, I generally
only find that there isn't time on mini roundabouts, and then only
some of them. But this "error" merely reduces the bandwidth of the
road (i.e. it's an inconsiderate error, not a dangerous one), so it is
of far lesser importance than (1), which would be downright dangerous.

On the rare occasion that I change my mind about an exit having
already signalled left for it, assuming there is no vehicle behind me
or to my right in which case changing my mind is not a safe option and
I will take it anyway then find somewhere to turn round, I would
briefly indicate right (to signify I intend *not* to take the exit)
but also prepare to give way to anyone approaching the roundabout at
the next exit who may have been confused by the aborted signal.
Similarly, if doing a U-turn at a small roundabout (where people will
tend not to expect it), it is a good idea to prepare to give way at
the furthest-round exit. That isn't in the Highway Code, but is
sensible defensive driving; if you have made an error that could in
any way cause confusion, prepare for others to be confused and to
accommodate their resulting actions.

Neil

In message , Bruce
writes
What *would* make sense is for older drivers, including you, to drive
in the same way that has been taught to learners for some years, is
expected in driving tests (and indeed any alternative approach may
contribute towards a failure) and is clearly indicated in the figure
above Clause 186 in the Highway Code. To do otherwise introduces
additional, unnecessary risk of a collision.
I've just looked at the above figure (above Clause 186) and it does not
prohibit what I was taught in 1963, that you may use the outside lane to
exit the roundabout opposite your entry.
--
Clive

On 31/01/2012 06:51, Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:57:26 +0000, The Real Doctor
wrote:
whether to annoy people by moving into the correct lane or whether
to
annoy people by taking the wrong lane onto the roundabout.

Or if in doubt approach in the right hand lane and go round 1.5 times, which
shouldn't really annoy anyone.

Good suggestion.

Approaching in the RFL and describing 270 degrees round the roundabout (to
turn left) is often a useful tactic.