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Chain Lube?



 
 
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  #61  
Old November 16th 18, 12:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Chain Lube?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 15:06:45 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I really wonder about the reference to difficult shifting as I've used
wax on bikes that had (1) down tube friction shifters, (2) Shimano
Brifters, and (3) both indexed and friction bar end shifters, and
frankly I never noticed any difficulties in shifting with any shifter
system.

But in thinking about it, I would suggest that if it did make shifting
difficult it is probably because the wax, having penetrated the links
and rollers of the chain, that the chain is now stiffer, more rigid,
then a chain that is not wax lubricated.


The only thing that made sense to me that it had to be some custom
concoction made almost of candle wax allowed to congeal in large lumps.

The commercial stuff I use is noticeably stiffer when first applied for
about a mile, then its outstand ability is its rain resistance for days
before a smear of oil makes a difference. I've never noticed any
difficulty in gear shifting.

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  #62  
Old November 17th 18, 07:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default Chain Lube?

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:25:24 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:50:35 +0700, John B. slocomb
wrote:

I guess that you didn't read that very well. I said "a mix of
petroleum lubricants and a light carrier which evaporated leaving a
greasy residue". Which part of "evaporated leaving a greasy residue"
did you miss.


I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?

As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I did much the same thing, but not as neatly as your method. When I
tried it, I ran into a problem. The space between the side plates and
the sleeve accumulated a fair amount of oil. When I extracted the
pins, the would slid THROUGH this accumulation of oil and coat the
pin. Inspection of the pin and sleeve appeared to show that they were
coated with oil (using a UV die marker). However, I couldn't be sure
if it was originally transported by solvent evaporation, capillary
action, or just smeared onto the parts during pin extraction.

I just conjured a method that I think will remove the smearing problem
from the test. Remove one side plate from a length of chain leaving
two pins and one side plate. Remove all oil with solvent. We don't
have MEK in Calif thanks to the VoC ban, so I guess it will paint
thinner or something else. Make sure that the pins and plate will
initially fall out with no oil and when inverted. The pins may need
some tweaking to insure that they're both centered in the sleeves.

Presumably, if there's oil all over the pins and sleeves, the
viscosity of the oil cause the pins and plate to take much longer to
fall out when inverted. I haven't worked out a plan yet to eliminate
the smearing problem, but I think just wiping the area around the
missing side plate, and just inverting the assembly will be
sufficient.

I'll be running this test in about a week. If you could disclose the
lube and solvent mix that you used, I will try to use the same stuff.
Otherwise, something cheap that evaporates easily, a suitable
petroleum grease, and a UV tracer should be adequate for now. I can
try the wax test later.

A day late but we were in Bangkok for a couple of days :-)

The hydro-carbon stuff I used to use is made by CRC Industries and is
called "TAC2 Adhesive Lubricant". You can google it at
https://crcindustries.com.au/product...300g-5035.html

The procedure I used was to soak the chain in a solvent bath over
night and then to re wash it until no more grime was seen, rinse in
either alcohol or MEK - depending on what I had to hand - then hang
the chain up until it dried. Then lay the chain out (on newspapers) on
it's back, as it were, with the rollers horizontal and spray the chain
with the lubricant... wait a bit for the stuff to dry a bit, turn the
chain over and spray the other side and let that dry. Then roll the
chain up and store it in a "ziplok" bag until needed.

It sounds like a lot of work but really it isn't. When I wash the bike
I take the chain off and toss it in a container of solvent and go on
with what I was doing. The next day I discard the solvent and slosh
some more in the container and continue with whatever I am doing that
day. A while later I inspect the chain and if clean I rinse in some
form of thinner and let it dry. Then lay it out and spray the
lubricant.

My guess is that the longest part of the operation is spraying the
lubricant - pssssh, wait a bit and pssssh :-)

The wax lube is similar. Wash and rinse (to get the solvent off) then
dunk in the melted wax for at least one and more likely two or three
thermostat cycles and fish it out and hang it up to allow the excess
wax to drip off, then store it away until I need it.

Rather then worry about whether the wax/oil/grease penetrates I just
ride the bike. The chain doesn't squeak, doesn't rust, wears so little
that after a year of use it is still well within wear limits and
independent tests have shown that there is the least power loss using
a wax mixture.... what's not to like :-?

The TAC2 is at roughly room temperature while the wax mixture is
something over 100 degrees (C).


Molykote® D-321 R Anti-Friction Coating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny6JwtnDyag (1:55)
Looks like it was designed for dusty environments.

What I would like to try is a chain where the pin or sleeve have a
spiral groove cut along its length to "pump" oil through the bearing.
Just keep adding oil to lubricate. When it's time to clean the chain,
just remove the chain, reverse the direction of rotation, and the
accumulated grease and crud will be pushed out the direction it
arrived.


Why bother? A constant drip chain oiler will keep the chain lubricated
and clean without going to all sorts of complicated rigmarole.


The idea was to help clear the chain from old oil and help pump fresh
oil into the pin and sleeve area. I too have my doubts that it would
be worthwhile doing, but I thought it might be interesting to try.


I can assure you that a working drip oiler will keep the chain
clean... assuming that it drips frequently enough. In my miss-spent
youth I had them on several motorcycles and they worked great :-
I will say though that if they get the rear tire all oily then \ they
are probably are set too rich.

Harley Davidson used them on both front and rear chains for years.
cheers,

John B.



  #63  
Old November 17th 18, 09:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?


Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."
  #64  
Old November 17th 18, 11:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/17/2018 3:25 PM, sms wrote:

It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."


How often do you clean and re-lubricate your chain? How long does it take?

How often do you clean the black junk off your rear cogs? And the
derailleur jockey pulleys? and the chainrings and front derailleur and
frame? And what do you do to keep chain grease off your non-cycling
clothing?

Give us details, please.

For me, I re-wax the chain while it's on the bike. It takes maybe ten
minutes and lasts maybe 500 miles, as a guess. I essentially never clean
my rear cluster because it doesn't get black gunk all over it. Ditto the
derailleur pulleys, chainrings, etc. If I really want to shine things
up, I may wipe some of those bits with a couple paper towels.

I never clean the black stuff off my chainstays, dropouts, etc. because
there isn't any black stuff. I clean my bikes typically once per year,
yet they don't look dirty. (Most of the cleaning is literally dusting,
including using Pledge wax.)

I never had to worry about riding to work in khaki trousers. If they
brushed against the chain at its dirtiest, the smudge would be barely
visible.

Counting all the above work, I _very_ much doubt your chain-related
cleaning and maintenance takes less time than mine.

Really, the main reason you think you know so much about wax chain
lubrication disadvantages is this: You don't use it.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #65  
Old November 18th 18, 12:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default Chain Lube?

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?


Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."


I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before,
but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil
through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we
are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient
pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the
other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows
them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the
dark and dismal depths of the chain?

After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam
doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into
the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the
top.

I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers
spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam,
from oil before forcing it down a pipeline.

As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that
describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain
waxing"?

After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be
the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that
stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain,
that described in detain how the test was made.
cheers,

John B.



  #66  
Old November 18th 18, 07:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,261
Default Chain Lube?

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?


Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."


I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before,
but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil
through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we
are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient
pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the
other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows
them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the
dark and dismal depths of the chain?

After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam
doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into
the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the
top.

I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers
spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam,
from oil before forcing it down a pipeline.

As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that
describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain
waxing"?

After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be
the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that
stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain,
that described in detain how the test was made.
cheers,

John B.


John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation.

The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything.
  #67  
Old November 18th 18, 07:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/18/2018 10:35 AM, wrote:

snip

John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation.

The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything.


I will give this a try. The foaming chain lubricant works wonderfully
well as a lubricant but you have to clean the chain first.

I think that I speak for many here in that we are Looking to minimize
time spent on chain maintenance while still having a chain that is both
cleaned and lubed. A little extra money is worth it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IQCMD4

  #68  
Old November 18th 18, 07:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,261
Default Chain Lube?

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 2:41:09 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2018 3:25 PM, sms wrote:

It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."


How often do you clean and re-lubricate your chain? How long does it take?

How often do you clean the black junk off your rear cogs? And the
derailleur jockey pulleys? and the chainrings and front derailleur and
frame? And what do you do to keep chain grease off your non-cycling
clothing?

Give us details, please.

For me, I re-wax the chain while it's on the bike. It takes maybe ten
minutes and lasts maybe 500 miles, as a guess. I essentially never clean
my rear cluster because it doesn't get black gunk all over it. Ditto the
derailleur pulleys, chainrings, etc. If I really want to shine things
up, I may wipe some of those bits with a couple paper towels.

I never clean the black stuff off my chainstays, dropouts, etc. because
there isn't any black stuff. I clean my bikes typically once per year,
yet they don't look dirty. (Most of the cleaning is literally dusting,
including using Pledge wax.)

I never had to worry about riding to work in khaki trousers. If they
brushed against the chain at its dirtiest, the smudge would be barely
visible.

Counting all the above work, I _very_ much doubt your chain-related
cleaning and maintenance takes less time than mine.

Really, the main reason you think you know so much about wax chain
lubrication disadvantages is this: You don't use it.

--
- Frank Krygowski


I have taken the chain off of the bike and heated it in an oven to a pretty warm temperature (you have to use gloves to handle it) and melted the chain wax in hot water. Application of this STILL doesn't get the wax inside of the rollers and despite the chain running pretty quiet it wears rapidly and deposits that wax all over the cassette and the new cassettes with many of the cogs fixed together are extremely difficult to clean.

I've also used a Park "chain cleaner" from using various solvents to clean the chain to the point where there is no lubricant anywhere on the chain. Relubing with most chain lubes will not get the lubricant inside of the rollers and again the chain wears much more rapidly than normal

The first third of the year I was unable to ride for many reasons such as cataract surgery and then having to take my brother into the doctor every day for a month concerning his glaucoma surgery. Then a month of heavy rains etc. So I only have a little more than 4,000 miles this year but I have almost 170,000 feet of climbing all over 5%. So I appreciate les time maintaining the chain which Rock and Roll provides.
  #69  
Old November 19th 18, 01:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default Chain Lube?

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?

Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."


I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before,
but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil
through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we
are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient
pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the
other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows
them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the
dark and dismal depths of the chain?

After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam
doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into
the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the
top.

I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers
spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam,
from oil before forcing it down a pipeline.

As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that
describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain
waxing"?

After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be
the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that
stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain,
that described in detain how the test was made.
cheers,

John B.


John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation.


I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains
pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the
bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it
up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't
penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of
beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass
of champagne.



The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant

in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the
chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent
washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as
much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry
overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent
evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does
have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain
doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of
course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it
fairly often to clean everything.

Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz.
cheers,

John B.



  #70  
Old November 19th 18, 01:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Chain Lube?

On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?

Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."

I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before,
but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil
through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we
are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient
pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the
other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows
them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the
dark and dismal depths of the chain?

After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam
doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into
the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the
top.

I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers
spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam,
from oil before forcing it down a pipeline.

As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that
describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain
waxing"?

After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be
the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that
stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain,
that described in detain how the test was made.
cheers,

John B.


John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation.


I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains
pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the
bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it
up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't
penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of
beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass
of champagne.



The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant

in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the
chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent
washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as
much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry
overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent
evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does
have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain
doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of
course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it
fairly often to clean everything.

Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz.
cheers,

John B.


John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself.

Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you?
 




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