Electric Assist Motors; some questions

In general, I do not care for electric motors; I have neither owned
nor ridden one. My wife is handicapped and rides a smaller model
Lightfoot tricycle which is a (sort of) high quality semi-recumbent
delta with a left-side drive and right-side idle. We have recently
moved to an area with steep hills and the Lightfoot is *not* a light
weight device.

I'm researching an electric assist for her bike. I would see it as
mainly a hill assist set at single speed. The idle rear wheel is able
to accept a cassette; however, I do not want to add any operational
complexity... she's doing well to manage one set of gears. We're
looking for about a fast walking speed under climbing conditions.

Where would one go to find good, unbiased comparisons of the available
motors? My understanding is this:

Hub drives
direct vs geared
direct is simpler and cheaper
geared provides more torque which is what we want

downside: hub drives drag when no power is applied and geared
drives drag more.

I haven't finished researching "mid drives"; however, I have lots of
frame and an idler wheel with room for a freewheel drive. This would
allow me to change the gearing easily to get the desired speed.

Any thoughts/advice? (I don't want to participate in an aesthetic
argument over motors in general... *I* don't particularly want one.)

Jones

On Monday, November 3, 2014 3:46:18 PM UTC, �Jones wrote:
In general, I do not care for electric motors; I have neither owned
nor ridden one. My wife is handicapped and rides a smaller model
Lightfoot tricycle which is a (sort of) high quality semi-recumbent
delta with a left-side drive and right-side idle. We have recently
moved to an area with steep hills and the Lightfoot is *not* a light
weight device.

I'm researching an electric assist for her bike. I would see it as
mainly a hill assist set at single speed. The idle rear wheel is able
to accept a cassette; however, I do not want to add any operational
complexity... she's doing well to manage one set of gears. We're
looking for about a fast walking speed under climbing conditions.

Where would one go to find good, unbiased comparisons of the available
motors? My understanding is this:

Hub drives
direct vs geared
direct is simpler and cheaper
geared provides more torque which is what we want

downside: hub drives drag when no power is applied and geared
drives drag more.

I haven't finished researching "mid drives"; however, I have lots of
frame and an idler wheel with room for a freewheel drive. This would
allow me to change the gearing easily to get the desired speed.

Any thoughts/advice? (I don't want to participate in an aesthetic
argument over motors in general... *I* don't particularly want one.)

Jones

Since a couple of heart surgeries, I have a motor on my bike. At http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
you will find the entry page of six articles of which the first four are a decision tree for deciding which sort of motor you want, which particular motor you want and who should supply it, a fitting tutorial, and so on. If your wife doesn't ride at night or in bad light, you can skip the two final articles which are about lamps, including daylight running lamps.

Couple of points beyond that article are immediately relevant. If you're even thinking of fitting a rear or a mid motor, you've been listening to the wrong people and received a bum steer already. Rear motors are for speed freaks and involve you in gears and their controls and the ability to time changes on the throttle, and DIY midmotors are in their current stage of development strictly for experts and masochists. The simplest, literally bolt-in, job is a front motor. It cannot in your particular circumstances be arranged as a pedelec, because that is arse about end, giving less power when the cyclist needs it most, a perverse "solution" brought to you by those same idiotic German legislators who gave us the auto-subservient German StVZO regulations for bicycle lamps. But the bits that come with a proper electrificaiton kit are easily rearranged to lose the pedelec settings (you just leave two the bits pictured at the URL above in the box) and fit only the throttle control, which obviates the need to mess around expensively with the gearing to get the right single speed (a dangerous horror in itself...).

Note that the articles at the URL discuss electric *assistance*, not an electric bike. Your wife will still have to pedal. The motor fills in the gap. The arrangement I have is what you want because the circumstances are a near equivalent. It adds only a single control, the throttle. It permits you to convert her existing bike without upsetting any of the familiar controls.. I've found the motor I generally recommend both powerful and docile, so I don't imagine that after a brief familiarization period she will have any difficulty running it on the throttle even in traffic.

By all means ask any further questions that arise. I'm delighted to be able to help.

Andre Jute
20km today

On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 09:51:49 -0800 (PST), in rec.bicycles.tech Andre
Jute wrote:

Since a couple of heart surgeries, I have a motor on my bike. At http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
you will find the entry page of six articles of which the first four are a decision tree for deciding which sort of motor you want, which particular motor you want and who should supply it, a fitting tutorial, and so on. If your wife doesn't ride at night or in bad light, you can skip the two final articles which are about lamps, including daylight running lamps.

Couple of points beyond that article are immediately relevant. If you're even thinking of fitting a rear or a mid motor, you've been listening to the wrong people and received a bum steer already. Rear motors are for speed freaks and involve you in gears and their controls and the ability to time changes on the throttle, and DIY midmotors are in their current stage of development strictly for experts and masochists. The simplest, literally bolt-in, job is a front motor. It cannot in your particular circumstances be arranged as a pedelec, because that is arse about end, giving less power when the cyclist needs it most, a perverse "solution" brought to you by those same idiotic German legislators who gave us the auto-subservient German StVZO regulations for bicycle lamps. But the bits that come with a proper electrificaiton kit are easily rearranged to lose the pedelec settings (you just leave two the bits pictured at the URL above in the box) and fit only the throttle control, which
obviates the need to mess around expensively with the gearing to get the right single speed (a dangerous horror in itself...).

Note that the articles at the URL discuss electric *assistance*, not an electric bike. Your wife will still have to pedal. The motor fills in the gap. The arrangement I have is what you want because the circumstances are a near equivalent. It adds only a single control, the throttle. It permits you to convert her existing bike without upsetting any of the familiar controls. I've found the motor I generally recommend both powerful and docile, so I don't imagine that after a brief familiarization period she will have any difficulty running it on the throttle even in traffic.

By all means ask any further questions that arise. I'm delighted to be able to help.

Andre Jute
20km today

What you're saying is about what we're looking for. The reason I'd
even consider a "mid-motor" is because (1) I have somplace to mount
and (2) I have an extra rear wheel that would accept a single-speed
drive gear.

We want a simple, basically low-speed device to add an uphill push to
a fairly heavy (compared to a 2-wheeler) tricycle.

I'm looking at a device called the "Hilltopper" which is a front hub,
on/off setup. I'll go read your suggested literature now and get
back.

Jones

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 12:44:12 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech ¡Jones
wrote:

What you're saying is about what we're looking for. The reason I'd
even consider a "mid-motor" is because (1) I have somplace to mount
and (2) I have an extra rear wheel that would accept a single-speed
drive gear.

We want a simple, basically low-speed device to add an uphill push to
a fairly heavy (compared to a 2-wheeler) tricycle.

I'm looking at a device called the "Hilltopper" which is a front hub,
on/off setup. I'll go read your suggested literature now and get
back.

Jones

I hear good things about 8Fun; however, they're a European product
with no US presence. That "Hilltopper" looks very simple. You switch
it on: it pushes; switch it off: it quits. That's what I'd use.

I'm worried that, if she got into a tight spot, she might not switch
off.

Jones

trike and motor is an engineered, packaged concept from golf carts. Phrase the search subject, look thru Google Shopping, Google Images ( with blogs) then proceed to equipment designed in hilly terrain, if possible.

Back a coupla years before overcrowding and hi power quad ATV, electric trikes and bikes were common here, reliable but Fla is flat. If a package was out of Wisconsin or Denver then look there. You might see this crop up in Google Maps if you ask the software 'what's there'

Users here were on lead acid batts.

On 4/11/2014 1:46 AM, ¡Jones wrote:
In general, I do not care for electric motors; I have neither owned
nor ridden one. My wife is handicapped and rides a smaller model
Lightfoot tricycle which is a (sort of) high quality semi-recumbent
delta with a left-side drive and right-side idle. We have recently
moved to an area with steep hills and the Lightfoot is *not* a light
weight device.

I'm researching an electric assist for her bike. I would see it as
mainly a hill assist set at single speed. The idle rear wheel is able
to accept a cassette; however, I do not want to add any operational
complexity... she's doing well to manage one set of gears. We're
looking for about a fast walking speed under climbing conditions.

Where would one go to find good, unbiased comparisons of the available
motors? My understanding is this:

Hub drives
direct vs geared
direct is simpler and cheaper
geared provides more torque which is what we want

downside: hub drives drag when no power is applied and geared
drives drag more.

I haven't finished researching "mid drives"; however, I have lots of
frame and an idler wheel with room for a freewheel drive. This would
allow me to change the gearing easily to get the desired speed.

Any thoughts/advice? (I don't want to participate in an aesthetic
argument over motors in general... *I* don't particularly want one.)

Jones

My experience with electric assist is with the products of Ezee in
Shanghai. I have fitted their electric conversion kit to several
bicycles and also have one complete factory built Ezee e-bike.
Here's their Ezee conversion kit page on the factory website.
http://ezeebike.com/bikes-and-options/kit_spec/
Note the slideshow at the top of the page showing a wide variety of two
and three wheelers with the kit fitted. It comes in 20" 26" and 700c
wheel sizes.
On the North American continent, the distributor I have had most to do
with is Grin Technologies in Vancouver, Canada
Here's their page about the conversion kit.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion...basic-559.html

I've dealt with Grin Tech mainly regarding their Cycle Analyst e-bike
computer (nice non-essential toy) and some spare parts for conversions.
They know their stuff and have worked closely with the Ezee company in
providing Western world consumer feedback. I've found them unstinting in
their response to emailed questions even when it's only about a few
dollars worth of parts I'm ordering.
There are other Ezee stockists based in the USA. See the distributors
map on the Ezeebike main site.

The most basic Ezee front kit has a geared motor with internal free
wheel, hence no drag when power is not applied. Controlled with a half
twist spring loaded throttle or a spring loaded thumb throttle.
The Crystalyte direct drive hubs also offered by Grin Tech lack the
internal gearing and freewheel, are therefore less complex, but do have
some cogging drag effect when un-powered, are larger in diameter and are
heavier.
In practice, when carrying around the weight of the battery, hub and
controller, a rider will generally use some motor assistance unless
he/she likes exercise that feels like riding a loaded touring bike. In
the simplest conversions, the amount of assist is set by opening the
throttle a little or a lot. Wonderful technology like bottom brackets
that sense pedaling force is strictly for e-bike enthusiasts or the birds.
The advantage of a geared hub is that the motor spins faster and works
better on take-off and on hills. Disadvantage is more mechanical
complexity and some gear noise.
Read and digest all of the Ezee and Grin Tech websites. It will give you
a better appreciation of the topic.
PH

On Monday, November 3, 2014 6:53:24 PM UTC, �Jones wrote to Andre Jute:

What you're saying is about what we're looking for. The reason I'd
even consider a "mid-motor" is because (1) I have somplace to mount
and (2) I have an extra rear wheel that would accept a single-speed
drive gear.

We want a simple, basically low-speed device to add an uphill push to
a fairly heavy (compared to a 2-wheeler) tricycle.

I'm looking at a device called the "Hilltopper" which is a front hub,
on/off setup. I'll go read your suggested literature now and get
back.

Jones

I hear good things about 8Fun; however, they're a European product
with no US presence. That "Hilltopper" looks very simple. You switch
it on: it pushes; switch it off: it quits. That's what I'd use.

I'm worried that, if she got into a tight spot, she might not switch
off.

Jones

It doesn't matter where you buy the kit. The important thing is to get the right kit, and to get a complete kit; I cannot stress the importance of a complete kit enough. Here is one of the cheapest dealers that nonetheless has a reliable reputation, in a link that will take you to the same kit that I have, updated with more modern peripherals:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits...-bike-kit.html
Note that this includes the right battery (for central mounting) and that it is the good battery, with Panasonic cells. The problem with these very attractive Chinese prices is that you're playing poker with Customs, who hold all the cards, and if the slightest technical thing goes wrong you're in for quite a bit of frustration, delay, and possibly expense. The only example of something going wrong with an 8FUN kit actually happened to me: a wire came loose in the loom. They instantly agreed I could solder it, and if the loom was ruined by my soldering, they would supply a new loom, or I could send the whole kit back and get a complete new one.

This is the same kit is sold by others under their own name, sometimes with claims that it is their "proprietary" motor, often for several times what BMS in China or 8FUN in the UK (where I bought mine) charges. Some chancers sell a kit without a battery for damn nearly twice what I paid for mine complete with battery. There is a German kit which uses the right motor and the battery in the bottle but has it's own very beautiful control wiring loom and boxes, but unfortunately it's pedelec only, and your wife needs the throttle installation. Note my remarks on my netsite about installing the throttle so I have to let it go in order to apply the brake -- no bootlegger turns here!

Here is a another account on a forum where several members eventually fitted various versions of the QSWXK kit, or had it fitted in some cases.
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/...19268#msg19268
Note the remarks about the axle diameter. On that forum with time it became clear to me that people who paid much more for what is essentially the same kit didn't get superior satisfaction out of it.

Andre Jute

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 12:44:12 -0600, ¡Jones wrote:

On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 09:51:49 -0800 (PST), in rec.bicycles.tech Andre
Jute wrote:

Since a couple of heart surgeries, I have a motor on my bike. At http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
you will find the entry page of six articles of which the first four are a decision tree for deciding which sort of motor you want, which particular motor you want and who should supply it, a fitting tutorial, and so on. If your wife doesn't ride at night or in bad light, you can skip the two final articles which are about lamps, including daylight running lamps.

Couple of points beyond that article are immediately relevant. If you're even thinking of fitting a rear or a mid motor, you've been listening to the wrong people and received a bum steer already. Rear motors are for speed freaks and involve you in gears and their controls and the ability to time changes on the throttle, and DIY midmotors are in their current stage of development strictly for experts and masochists. The simplest, literally bolt-in, job is a front motor. It cannot in your particular circumstances be arranged as a pedelec, because that is arse about end, giving less power when the cyclist needs it most, a perverse "solution" brought to you by those same idiotic German legislators who gave us the auto-subservient German StVZO regulations for bicycle lamps. But the bits that come with a proper electrificaiton kit are easily rearranged to lose the pedelec settings (you just leave two the bits pictured at the URL above in the box) and fit only the throttle control,
which
obviates the need to mess around expensively with the gearing to get the right single speed (a dangerous horror in itself...).

Note that the articles at the URL discuss electric *assistance*, not an electric bike. Your wife will still have to pedal. The motor fills in the gap. The arrangement I have is what you want because the circumstances are a near equivalent. It adds only a single control, the throttle. It permits you to convert her existing bike without upsetting any of the familiar controls. I've found the motor I generally recommend both powerful and docile, so I don't imagine that after a brief familiarization period she will have any difficulty running it on the throttle even in traffic.

By all means ask any further questions that arise. I'm delighted to be able to help.

Andre Jute
20km today

What you're saying is about what we're looking for. The reason I'd
even consider a "mid-motor" is because (1) I have somplace to mount
and (2) I have an extra rear wheel that would accept a single-speed
drive gear.

We want a simple, basically low-speed device to add an uphill push to
a fairly heavy (compared to a 2-wheeler) tricycle.

I'm looking at a device called the "Hilltopper" which is a front hub,
on/off setup. I'll go read your suggested literature now and get
back.

Jones
Look at the Currie I-Zip setup.or their "electrodrive"128 i-zip kit.
I'd throw one of them on the currently non-driven wheel. Virtually no
drag when over-running. No complexity in the drive train.

Per ¡Jones:
downside: hub drives drag when no power is applied and geared
drives drag more.

My experience has been the opposite: maximum drag with the hub drive
and imperceptible drag with my current geared drive.

Front vs rear is something to think about.

Frond drive lets you preserve whatever drive train you have, but weighs
down the front wheel a lot for when it comes to negotiating curbs and
such.

OTOH, if the throttle malfunctions at rest, you have a better chance of
lifting the front wheel than controlling a runaway back wheel.

OTOOH, I have disc brakes and either brake can overcome the motor if
necessary.

Batteries are also something to think about. Conventional eBike
batteries are *heavy*... as in compromise-balance-of-bike heavy.

I use a couple of 36v DeWalt drill batteries. They work for me because
my use is the same as your anticipated use: hills only (in my case, to
avoid mouth breathing in cold air).
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 12:53:22 -0600, ¡Jones wrote:

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 12:44:12 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech ¡Jones
wrote:

What you're saying is about what we're looking for. The reason I'd
even consider a "mid-motor" is because (1) I have somplace to mount
and (2) I have an extra rear wheel that would accept a single-speed
drive gear.

We want a simple, basically low-speed device to add an uphill push to
a fairly heavy (compared to a 2-wheeler) tricycle.

I'm looking at a device called the "Hilltopper" which is a front hub,
on/off setup. I'll go read your suggested literature now and get
back.

Jones

I hear good things about 8Fun; however, they're a European product
with no US presence. That "Hilltopper" looks very simple. You switch
it on: it pushes; switch it off: it quits. That's what I'd use.

I'm worried that, if she got into a tight spot, she might not switch
off.

Jones
Thats what I like about the currie. It has either a twist grip
throttle or a thumb throttle - variable speed drive.

I have one on a Schwinn bike and it has been very good.