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MTB disc brake caused wild fire



 
 
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  #111  
Old April 3rd 18, 06:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed
kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for
pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB
riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear,
have cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road?
Is cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work,
once set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high
(ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are
game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a
overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks
is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its
older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing
weak compared to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage -
that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is
limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail
to see why getting that amount of force from a one
pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all
day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s
a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there
weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a
video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep
downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of
riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max
braking action. These were all professional riders yet they
clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those
riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as
hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but
a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some
others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the
mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national
road champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of
MTB rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a
situation that could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the
situation just feels iffy.


Mountain is not road. There is no steering with braking, and
radically un-weighting your front wheel can result in wash-out on a
reversed-bank descending turn. You need to push back on the saddle
and maybe straighten your arms but you need both tires and both
brakes working for you.


Do some tests, it isn't all that different between offroad and on
pavement. It's just that offroad you can wipe out much easier but the
physics are the same.


The crash in this case was caused by a rider being put over the apex
of a turn, allegedly by support vehicle traffic. The rider was going
too fast for the turn, and hard, positive braking would have done
very little to prevent the crash.



It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that.
It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking
into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?


... Brammeier made a mistake, but I
guaranty you that he can beat you down any paved road. Go do some
descending with national or world-class road cyclists and then report
back. You'll learn just how bad you suck.


Sure they will beat me in downhill riding technique and pretty much any
otehr race-relevant skills. I do not corner well and I also never let'er
rip past 45mph on a long downhill stretch. Especially after the last
tire blow-out.

However, we were not talking about skills to win a race. We are talking
about reaction in emergencies and there was a clear lack visible in that
video. This is how it's done right:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...-on-a-bicycle/

Clearly some other riders in the video had the correct instincts and
posture approching this situation.


It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind
the saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the
rear left side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a
VW Polo driver blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way
to stop or slow down much. I instinctively slid behind the
handlebar and turned a bit. This resulted in not having an
uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying through the air like
this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right shoulder blade and
side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body smashed the
driver side door to the point where the driver could no longer open
it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of my bike
(which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I was
able to help the elderly driver get out.


He was allegedly bailing out directly across the apex of the turn
when a car drove in front of him. He made a forced error in hitting
the turn too fast on the inside.


And wrong seat position. Afterwards wrong impact stance. He was lucky he
didn't hit the car a few feet more forward or he'd have gotten his face
cut up by the rack and stuff on top.



He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get
back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash.
Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the
first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was
just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.


Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking across
the apex planning his entry and exit. But he was pushed out of line
by a support vehicle. **** happens.



Right but when it does you need to react right then and there, not
seconds later.


Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a pro-continental level rider can make a momentary mistake, and it is easy in retrospect for spectators to say what should have been done. Without getting into what Brammeier could have or should have done, just throwing your weight back is not SOP for fast, off-camber turns on a road bike. It's great for in-line panic stops, but when you're descending and turning, weight transfer is more subtle, and involves fore-aft, side to side, and up-down -- and when panic stopping through a corner, shifting your weight way back and getting too much rear traction can lead to a high side crash. I'd rather wash out both wheels and take the low side crash, assuming I have to crash.




“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road
but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in
front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the
corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.”

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything
until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel
any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of
that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****,
this is really bad’.”

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders
were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes
after a grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.


Have you ever raced road -- done a 100kph descent?



No, I find that too risky on li'l 25mm tires that can let their 110psi
go within a split second. Especially since I don't have medics following
me at every turn like these guys do.


I did 62mph on 21mm tires on Carson Pass -- just up the road from you. On a closed road for the Death Ride in the days of yore. No medics, although I could have used a saline drip. I was wiped out and probably headed to dehydration from the heat. I've ridden in the 50-60mph range and gotten passed, which is freaky. Too much wind resistance I guess, and I'm too old for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvmibwafGXc Riding with racers who can really descend is eye-opening, particularly on wet pavement. That's when I just dial it down and meet them at the bottom.


-- Jay Beattie.


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  #112  
Old April 3rd 18, 07:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 1:11:37 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
No, I find that too risky on li'l 25mm tires that can let their 110psi
go within a split second. Especially since I don't have medics following
me at every turn like these guys do.


I did 62mph on 21mm tires on Carson Pass -- just up the road from you. On a closed road for the Death Ride in the days of yore.


My fastest was 54 mph. Frustrating, because I was held back by a car in front of
me. And it wasn't a drafting situation; I came up on him from behind, but didn't
have an opportunity to pass. (I was on 28s.)

I don't think I'd try that now. It was on a super-hilly ride I used to lead
annually. One year I was away on vacation and someone else led the ride in my
place. That year, one rider crashed on that same downhill. Tales like that now
would make me nervous.

... I'm too old for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvmibwafGXc


Serious question: Is that UCI legal?

Back in my college days, I remember being on a motorcycle ride with several
friends. One of them pulled that trick, and got over 100mph with his Honda
350 (IIRC). But he was known to be despondent over a lost love. I wondered at
the time if he was suicidal.

Riding with racers who can really descend is eye-opening, particularly on wet pavement. That's when I just dial it down and meet them at the bottom.


Funny, I've always been tolerant of straight line speeds, but always
quite cautious in curves.

One friend of mine had been an avid rider, but almost stopped by the time I
met him. We did only one fairly short ride together. It was frustrating, because
he wouldn't exceed 20 mph on downhills.

Turns out that in his avid riding days, he'd gone into a high speed wobble on
a long, steep downhill. As he describes it, he locked up both wheels and blew
out both tires, skidding with his feet on the ground across the opposing lane
of the two-lane road and falling in the opposite shoulder. Luckily there were
no cars coming. In any case, he never recovered from the terror.

- Frank Krygowski

  #113  
Old April 3rd 18, 08:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-04-03 10:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:



[...]


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to
get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash.
Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of
the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there
was just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking
across the apex planning his entry and exit. But he was pushed
out of line by a support vehicle. **** happens.



Right but when it does you need to react right then and there, not
seconds later.


Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a pro-continental
level rider can make a momentary mistake, and it is easy in
retrospect for spectators to say what should have been done. Without
getting into what Brammeier could have or should have done, just
throwing your weight back is not SOP for fast, off-camber turns on a
road bike.



It is SOP for any bike (other than recumbents, of course) when facing a
situation of potential impact. It's got nothing to do with the turn, he
knew he would not be able to make that turn anymore and that there
either would be a crash or lift-off straight out of the curve and into
the vegetation. Like in the video.

Several riders in the video have instinctively done it right. Why do you
think that is?


... It's great for in-line panic stops, but when you're
descending and turning, ...



What turn? He knew there was no turn for him anymore and from the quotes
you posted he even said so. Quote "there was no chance of me making it
so I was just looking for an exit plan, really".


... weight transfer is more subtle, and involves
fore-aft, side to side, and up-down -- and when panic stopping
through a corner, shifting your weight way back and getting too much
rear traction can lead to a high side crash.



Again, the corner is irrelevant if there is no chance to make it
anymore. Also, in a max deceleration stop there is barely any rear
traction left, if any. Shifting your weight back as far as possible and
belly-riding the bike provides you with the max possible brake action on
the front wheel. Any other stance will result in less brake performance,
meaning a harder crash.


... I'd rather wash out both
wheels and take the low side crash, assuming I have to crash.


"Laying the bike" is another strategy. In the scenario here I wouldn't
have done it though, just like I didn't when a driver blew a stop sign
right in front of me. Because you could slide underneath the rolling car
and something important could get crunched. Like the head.

My wife and I just completed a 4h mature driver course, mainly to get
the insurance discount. I wish there was something similar for cyclists.
One of the topics was what to do when a crash is imminent and
unavoidable. How to prepare, how and where to hit the obstacle or other
vehicle, how not to.





“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the
road but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the
road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was
no chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit
plan, really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right
in front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the
corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.”

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember
anything until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a
good thing”.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really
feel any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he
said of that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like
‘****, this is really bad’.”

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing
riders were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the
descent comes after a grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow
someone's reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders
did not take instinctive countermeasures at all.

Have you ever raced road -- done a 100kph descent?



No, I find that too risky on li'l 25mm tires that can let their
110psi go within a split second. Especially since I don't have
medics following me at every turn like these guys do.


I did 62mph on 21mm tires on Carson Pass -- just up the road from
you. On a closed road for the Death Ride in the days of yore. No
medics, although I could have used a saline drip. I was wiped out and
probably headed to dehydration from the heat. I've ridden in the
50-60mph range and gotten passed, which is freaky. Too much wind
resistance I guess, and I'm too old for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvmibwafGXc



Yikes. I used to do that when sledding as a kid. Sometimes kids died
that way when they hit a tree because their head acted at the bumper.
Still, as a kid one feels invincible. Like what could possibly happen?
To me?


... Riding with racers who
can really descend is eye-opening, particularly on wet pavement.
That's when I just dial it down and meet them at the bottom.


The pros sure take their chances. I have become more cautious over the
last 2-3 years, having gone through a few events of serious equipment
failure at speed. Those events were the real eye-openers for me. So I
don't fret much if I arrive at a destination 10mins later than I used to.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #114  
Old April 3rd 18, 10:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 12:09:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 10:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:



[...]


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to
get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash.
Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of
the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there
was just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking
across the apex planning his entry and exit. But he was pushed
out of line by a support vehicle. **** happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and there, not
seconds later.


Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a pro-continental
level rider can make a momentary mistake, and it is easy in
retrospect for spectators to say what should have been done. Without
getting into what Brammeier could have or should have done, just
throwing your weight back is not SOP for fast, off-camber turns on a
road bike.



It is SOP for any bike (other than recumbents, of course) when facing a
situation of potential impact. It's got nothing to do with the turn, he
knew he would not be able to make that turn anymore and that there
either would be a crash or lift-off straight out of the curve and into
the vegetation. Like in the video.

Several riders in the video have instinctively done it right. Why do you
think that is?


O.K. Let's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKdVMYo1H38

What "instinctively right?" All the riders who made it successfully through the turn were in their saddles and riding in classic style -- no bellies on the top tub, but off the back, etc., etc. Go to :07 for example, and the rider at :10 IMO, the rider with the best line is at :17 starting far right and ending far left across the crown, planted in his saddle, weight back but clearly on the saddle. No Heine moves.

Go to the slow-mo at 1:57 and look at their position. Then watch when Brammeier comes into the frame at 2:08 -- something is going horribly wrong. At one point, both wheels are off the ground, like he's on a ski jump. He lands the front wheel. He gets the rear wheel down at 2:11, tries to turn and high-sides before even hitting the car. It was not a wall impact -- which would have been the outcome had he taken a straight line. Turn, plant, high-side. In fact, at 2:11-2:12, he's almost got the bike traveling in the direction of the turn -- but it's also going sideways by then and way too fast.

Now go to 4:00 and see the riders coming down the hill. Freeze the first rider at 4:01 and note his position on the bike -- same with rider No. 2. Now go to 4:14 and there is Brammeier approaching the turn. At 4:15 he locks up his rear wheel, fish-tails and then launches off the lip of the descending turn. Slow-mo of same: pause at 7:21 to see the position of two successful riders -- pretty normal position. No belly on top tube, no Heine heinie.. The bad sh**t happens at 5:55. You can see that at 5:46 he's too far over to rider's right and maybe pushed there by the car just ahead. Who knows, but interference from support vehicles is not apparent at that point.

The real story was the turn before the crash. Brammeier had too much speed out of the prior right turn and because of support car or for whatever reason, he was out of position for the immediate left an got launched over the lip of that descending left turn. Land, stick it, brake and high-side. Bummer.

I'm telling you, Guardsman is a killer and scary even in a car, and the road surface near the top is ruined, near gravel asphalt -- and 15%. You climb just to get your ass kicked at the end.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #115  
Old April 3rd 18, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-04-03 14:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 12:09:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 10:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:



[...]


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing
to get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his
crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one
of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side
and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes.
Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn
looking across the apex planning his entry and exit. But he
was pushed out of line by a support vehicle. **** happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and there,
not seconds later.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a
pro-continental level rider can make a momentary mistake, and it
is easy in retrospect for spectators to say what should have been
done. Without getting into what Brammeier could have or should
have done, just throwing your weight back is not SOP for fast,
off-camber turns on a road bike.



It is SOP for any bike (other than recumbents, of course) when
facing a situation of potential impact. It's got nothing to do with
the turn, he knew he would not be able to make that turn anymore
and that there either would be a crash or lift-off straight out of
the curve and into the vegetation. Like in the video.

Several riders in the video have instinctively done it right. Why
do you think that is?


O.K. Let's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKdVMYo1H38

What "instinctively right?" All the riders who made it successfully
through the turn were in their saddles and riding in classic style --



sigh

Please get your glasses and try again. Then look, for example, at the
first two riders, 0:02min and at 0:05min. They are clearly behind the
saddle. The two that follow didn't get far enough behind and, not
surprisingly, ride a lousy line in the curve.


no bellies on the top tub, but off the back, etc., etc. Go to :07
for example, and the rider at :10 IMO, the rider with the best line
is at :17 starting far right and ending far left across the crown,
planted in his saddle, weight back but clearly on the saddle. No
Heine moves.


Get you glasses and check again.


Go to the slow-mo at 1:57 and look at their position.




They are slower.


... Then watch
when Brammeier comes into the frame at 2:08 -- something is going
horribly wrong. At one point, both wheels are off the ground, like
he's on a ski jump. He lands the front wheel.



Yes, he lost control of his bike well before entering the curve. Hard to
say why but without going behind teh saddle he may not have been able to
brake hard in order to slow down enough.


He gets the rear wheel
down at 2:11, tries to turn and high-sides before even hitting the
car. It was not a wall impact -- which would have been the outcome
had he taken a straight line. Turn, plant, high-side. In fact, at
2:11-2:12, he's almost got the bike traveling in the direction of the
turn -- but it's also going sideways by then and way too fast.


He is trying to get into the right impact position but remains too high.
When I had my impact into the side of a car I dropped way low and didn't
sail across (didn't want to crash into unkown stuff on the other side of
the car or end up impaled). Essentially the surprisingly pliable metal
of the door acted as my crash pillow. Got to make sure not to hit a window.


Now go to 4:00 and see the riders coming down the hill. Freeze the
first rider at 4:01 and note his position on the bike -- same with
rider No. 2. Now go to 4:14 and there is Brammeier approaching the
turn. At 4:15 he locks up his rear wheel, fish-tails and then
launches off the lip of the descending turn.



He was way too fast to begin with. At that point it was already over.


... Slow-mo of same: pause
at 7:21 to see the position of two successful riders -- pretty normal
position.



7:21min has no info, just some image tiles. It is not a problem to
remain seated the entire downhill ride _if_ your speed is adjusted to
conditions.


No belly on top tube, no Heine heinie. The bad sh**t
happens at 5:55. You can see that at 5:46 he's too far over to
rider's right and maybe pushed there by the car just ahead. Who
knows, but interference from support vehicles is not apparent at that
point.

The real story was the turn before the crash. Brammeier had too much
speed out of the prior right turn and because of support car or for
whatever reason, he was out of position for the immediate left an got
launched over the lip of that descending left turn. Land, stick it,
brake and high-side. Bummer.


Yes, he came around the prior curve already way too fast. If you then go
behind the saddle you can slow down much quicker but he didn't. It may
still not be enough to avoid a crash but it sure can make the crash less
severe.


I'm telling you, Guardsman is a killer and scary even in a car, and
the road surface near the top is ruined, near gravel asphalt -- and
15%. You climb just to get your ass kicked at the end.



I'd ride that on my MTB. Much better gearing for the climb and huge
hydraulic disc brakes. Also more trunk space for a thermos with homemade
IPA :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #116  
Old April 4th 18, 01:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 3:46:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 14:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 12:09:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 10:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing
to get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his
crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one
of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side
and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes.
Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn
looking across the apex planning his entry and exit. But he
was pushed out of line by a support vehicle. **** happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and there,
not seconds later.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a
pro-continental level rider can make a momentary mistake, and it
is easy in retrospect for spectators to say what should have been
done. Without getting into what Brammeier could have or should
have done, just throwing your weight back is not SOP for fast,
off-camber turns on a road bike.


It is SOP for any bike (other than recumbents, of course) when
facing a situation of potential impact. It's got nothing to do with
the turn, he knew he would not be able to make that turn anymore
and that there either would be a crash or lift-off straight out of
the curve and into the vegetation. Like in the video.

Several riders in the video have instinctively done it right. Why
do you think that is?


O.K. Let's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKdVMYo1H38

What "instinctively right?" All the riders who made it successfully
through the turn were in their saddles and riding in classic style --



sigh

Please get your glasses and try again. Then look, for example, at the
first two riders, 0:02min and at 0:05min. They are clearly behind the
saddle. The two that follow didn't get far enough behind and, not
surprisingly, ride a lousy line in the curve.


no bellies on the top tub, but off the back, etc., etc. Go to :07
for example, and the rider at :10 IMO, the rider with the best line
is at :17 starting far right and ending far left across the crown,
planted in his saddle, weight back but clearly on the saddle. No
Heine moves.


Get you glasses and check again.


Go to the slow-mo at 1:57 and look at their position.




They are slower.


... Then watch
when Brammeier comes into the frame at 2:08 -- something is going
horribly wrong. At one point, both wheels are off the ground, like
he's on a ski jump. He lands the front wheel.



Yes, he lost control of his bike well before entering the curve. Hard to
say why but without going behind teh saddle he may not have been able to
brake hard in order to slow down enough.


He gets the rear wheel
down at 2:11, tries to turn and high-sides before even hitting the
car. It was not a wall impact -- which would have been the outcome
had he taken a straight line. Turn, plant, high-side. In fact, at
2:11-2:12, he's almost got the bike traveling in the direction of the
turn -- but it's also going sideways by then and way too fast.


He is trying to get into the right impact position but remains too high.
When I had my impact into the side of a car I dropped way low and didn't
sail across (didn't want to crash into unkown stuff on the other side of
the car or end up impaled). Essentially the surprisingly pliable metal
of the door acted as my crash pillow. Got to make sure not to hit a window.


Now go to 4:00 and see the riders coming down the hill. Freeze the
first rider at 4:01 and note his position on the bike -- same with
rider No. 2. Now go to 4:14 and there is Brammeier approaching the
turn. At 4:15 he locks up his rear wheel, fish-tails and then
launches off the lip of the descending turn.



He was way too fast to begin with. At that point it was already over.


... Slow-mo of same: pause
at 7:21 to see the position of two successful riders -- pretty normal
position.



7:21min has no info, just some image tiles. It is not a problem to
remain seated the entire downhill ride _if_ your speed is adjusted to
conditions.


Correction 4:47. First and second riders hitting the turn. Position looks pretty normal to me, and maybe we're fighting over nothing. Getting weight back for straight line slowing before a turn is common -- but nobody is doing the hyper-Heine thing. That's not necessary. Again, look at the three riders at :17. The guy on the outside is classic -- practically straight outside leg, nice line into the turn, weight centered. He comes across the apex and has room to spare on the other side and probably would have carried even more speed through the turn if there weren't traffic. Brammeier ski-jumped over the top of the turn. Personally, I like the guy who threads his way around the outside of the turn, past the officials and spectators. "Excuse me, pardon me, I'm racing here . . . "




No belly on top tube, no Heine heinie. The bad sh**t
happens at 5:55. You can see that at 5:46 he's too far over to
rider's right and maybe pushed there by the car just ahead. Who
knows, but interference from support vehicles is not apparent at that
point.

The real story was the turn before the crash. Brammeier had too much
speed out of the prior right turn and because of support car or for
whatever reason, he was out of position for the immediate left an got
launched over the lip of that descending left turn. Land, stick it,
brake and high-side. Bummer.


Yes, he came around the prior curve already way too fast. If you then go
behind the saddle you can slow down much quicker but he didn't. It may
still not be enough to avoid a crash but it sure can make the crash less
severe.


I'm telling you, Guardsman is a killer and scary even in a car, and
the road surface near the top is ruined, near gravel asphalt -- and
15%. You climb just to get your ass kicked at the end.



I'd ride that on my MTB. Much better gearing for the climb and huge
hydraulic disc brakes. Also more trunk space for a thermos with homemade
IPA :-)


You'll need homemade IPA in Utah (assuming its legal to home brew). You're not going to get anything convincing on tap -- only in a bottle. I'm going there on Friday. What's amazing is that its hard to get into the brewpub near my son's (soon to be former) apartment. http://www.avenuesproper.com/ Totally unremarkable 4% on-tap IPA, but the place is always hopping.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #117  
Old April 4th 18, 03:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that.
It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking
into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?


I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now
you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit
less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #118  
Old April 4th 18, 03:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 4/3/2018 3:09 PM, Joerg wrote:

My wife and I just completed a 4h mature driver course, mainly to get
the insurance discount. I wish there was something similar for cyclists.


There are such classes for cyclists.

http://cyclingsavvy.org/ is the best program currently running in the
U.S. It's extremely well done, and even people certified as LAB
instructors have remarked on how much they learned.

The program by the League of American Bicyclists (now titled "Smart
Cycling") used to be good, but over the decades it's been watered down
terribly. It's still better than nothing, but with LAB's greatly reduced
instructor qualifications, you may get someone good teaching you, or you
may get a warm body in lycra.

Not that it matters, Joerg. You've already proven that you would claim
to know more than the instructors. You would discount anything you
didn't already agree with, despite any evidence the instructor might
present. The text of state laws would be just one example.

In short, like so many solutions presented here, it wouldn't work for you.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #119  
Old April 4th 18, 02:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-04-03 17:45, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 3:46:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 14:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 12:09:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 10:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was
chasing to get back on and was confused by the
support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before
his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the
worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was
one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill
side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes.
Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn
looking across the apex planning his entry and exit. But
he was pushed out of line by a support vehicle. ****
happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and
there, not seconds later.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a
pro-continental level rider can make a momentary mistake, and
it is easy in retrospect for spectators to say what should
have been done. Without getting into what Brammeier could
have or should have done, just throwing your weight back is
not SOP for fast, off-camber turns on a road bike.


It is SOP for any bike (other than recumbents, of course) when
facing a situation of potential impact. It's got nothing to do
with the turn, he knew he would not be able to make that turn
anymore and that there either would be a crash or lift-off
straight out of the curve and into the vegetation. Like in the
video.

Several riders in the video have instinctively done it right.
Why do you think that is?

O.K. Let's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKdVMYo1H38

What "instinctively right?" All the riders who made it
successfully through the turn were in their saddles and riding in
classic style --



sigh

Please get your glasses and try again. Then look, for example, at
the first two riders, 0:02min and at 0:05min. They are clearly
behind the saddle. The two that follow didn't get far enough behind
and, not surprisingly, ride a lousy line in the curve.


no bellies on the top tub, but off the back, etc., etc. Go to
:07 for example, and the rider at :10 IMO, the rider with the
best line is at :17 starting far right and ending far left across
the crown, planted in his saddle, weight back but clearly on the
saddle. No Heine moves.


Get you glasses and check again.


Go to the slow-mo at 1:57 and look at their position.




They are slower.


... Then watch when Brammeier comes into the frame at 2:08 --
something is going horribly wrong. At one point, both wheels are
off the ground, like he's on a ski jump. He lands the front
wheel.



Yes, he lost control of his bike well before entering the curve.
Hard to say why but without going behind teh saddle he may not have
been able to brake hard in order to slow down enough.


He gets the rear wheel
down at 2:11, tries to turn and high-sides before even hitting
the car. It was not a wall impact -- which would have been the
outcome had he taken a straight line. Turn, plant, high-side. In
fact, at 2:11-2:12, he's almost got the bike traveling in the
direction of the turn -- but it's also going sideways by then and
way too fast.


He is trying to get into the right impact position but remains too
high. When I had my impact into the side of a car I dropped way low
and didn't sail across (didn't want to crash into unkown stuff on
the other side of the car or end up impaled). Essentially the
surprisingly pliable metal of the door acted as my crash pillow.
Got to make sure not to hit a window.


Now go to 4:00 and see the riders coming down the hill. Freeze
the first rider at 4:01 and note his position on the bike -- same
with rider No. 2. Now go to 4:14 and there is Brammeier
approaching the turn. At 4:15 he locks up his rear wheel,
fish-tails and then launches off the lip of the descending turn.



He was way too fast to begin with. At that point it was already
over.


... Slow-mo of same: pause at 7:21 to see the position of two
successful riders -- pretty normal position.



7:21min has no info, just some image tiles. It is not a problem to
remain seated the entire downhill ride _if_ your speed is adjusted
to conditions.


Correction 4:47. First and second riders hitting the turn. Position
looks pretty normal to me, and maybe we're fighting over nothing.
Getting weight back for straight line slowing before a turn is common
-- but nobody is doing the hyper-Heine thing. That's not necessary.



It is necessary when you realize you are well into an "Oh s..t!"
situation. Why would anyone want to give up even a small portion of
braking action?


Again, look at the three riders at :17. The guy on the outside is
classic -- practically straight outside leg, nice line into the turn,
weight centered. He comes across the apex and has room to spare on
the other side and probably would have carried even more speed
through the turn if there weren't traffic. Brammeier ski-jumped over
the top of the turn. Personally, I like the guy who threads his way
around the outside of the turn, past the officials and spectators.
"Excuse me, pardon me, I'm racing here . . . "


It makes no sense to belabor this forever. Fact is there were several
riders in this video with the correct instincts who went well behind the
saddle and didn't crash. I have pointed them out. Of the ones that
crashed none went behind the saddle.


No belly on top tube, no Heine heinie. The bad sh**t
happens at 5:55. You can see that at 5:46 he's too far over to
rider's right and maybe pushed there by the car just ahead. Who
knows, but interference from support vehicles is not apparent at
that point.

The real story was the turn before the crash. Brammeier had too
much speed out of the prior right turn and because of support car
or for whatever reason, he was out of position for the immediate
left an got launched over the lip of that descending left turn.
Land, stick it, brake and high-side. Bummer.


Yes, he came around the prior curve already way too fast. If you
then go behind the saddle you can slow down much quicker but he
didn't. It may still not be enough to avoid a crash but it sure can
make the crash less severe.


I'm telling you, Guardsman is a killer and scary even in a car,
and the road surface near the top is ruined, near gravel asphalt
-- and
15%. You climb just to get your ass kicked at the end.


I'd ride that on my MTB. Much better gearing for the climb and
huge hydraulic disc brakes. Also more trunk space for a thermos
with homemade IPA :-)


You'll need homemade IPA in Utah (assuming its legal to home brew).



It seems to be legal:

https://www.brewersassociation.org/p...all-50-states/

I'd never even consider a state if it wasn't. That would be blacklisted
on our personal "Places Rated" list.


You're not going to get anything convincing on tap -- only in a
bottle. I'm going there on Friday. What's amazing is that its hard
to get into the brewpub near my son's (soon to be former) apartment.



Do you have to fight the bouncer because they don't like Oregonians for
being too liberal on average? :-)

No kidding, something like that happened to a guy when house hunting in
Texas. When they noticed his California license plates. "Y'know, us
Texans around here don't like them liberals all that much". When he said
how he voted that broke the ice, attaboy, pats on the back and all that.


http://www.avenuesproper.com/ Totally unremarkable 4% on-tap IPA, but
the place is always hopping.


Yeah, people put up with almost anything if you can't get good brews
anywhere local. One can become spoiled. Yesterday my wife and I drank a
Grolsch which was always one of our staples. A friend had brought some
over. We both felt it tasted bland after having gotten used to homebrew.

Brewing makes totally no sense financially if you calculate in your own
invested time. However, then you always have "growler-fresh" beer at
hand but without having to drink the same type of beer from the same
growler all night. I often finish the evening with one of my favorites,
either a Belgian Tripel, a Honey Stout or a Pliny clone.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #120  
Old April 4th 18, 02:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for
that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better,
smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?


I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now
you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit
less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast down
long hills at breakneck speed.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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