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Making America into Amsterdam
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-) I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules, unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to electronics going over bumps) were not so easy. I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road. Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average slope is therefo 465 / 5280 = 8.8% I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today. It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all flat, but in my area, very little is flat. So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles were available? -- Cheers, John B. |
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#302
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-) Shuckins, I don't even need a bike -- it's only a mile and a half to Owen's, I could walk that far last year, and I do have a rolling walker with wheels big enough to use on sidewalks. We don't really *need* the food I buy at Sweet Corn Charley, Meijer, Aldi, Walmart, International Foods, Carniceria San Jose, and the farmers' markets. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#303
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-) I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules, unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to electronics going over bumps) were not so easy. I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road. Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average slope is therefo 465 / 5280 = 8.8% I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today. It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all flat, but in my area, very little is flat. So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles were available? I like your logic. The area has probably been inhabited for about 10,000+ years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas Last time I checked, bicycles were not available for most of this time span. Before bicycles, there were horses, oxen, and human transport, which were livable, but not exactly ideal. Bicycles were an improvement, followed by automobiles as a better improvement. The locals did quite well with horses, mules, oxen, trains, and boats. Incidentally, in 2002 there was a TV reality show with several modern families trying to live like homesteaders on the Montana frontier of 1883: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House Obviously, no automobiles. Bicycles would have been possible, but would have been rather quaint: https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+1883&tbm=isch As I vaguely recall, of the 4 families, 3 did badly and would not have survived the winter. One gave up. One cheated a little by finding a modern bedspring. Their homes were more a survival exercise than livable, with or without bicycles. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#304
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Making America into Amsterdam
rOn Tue, 24 Jul 2018 22:52:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-) I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules, unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to electronics going over bumps) were not so easy. I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road. Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average slope is therefo 465 / 5280 = 8.8% I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today. It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all flat, but in my area, very little is flat. So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles were available? I like your logic. The area has probably been inhabited for about 10,000+ years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas Last time I checked, bicycles were not available for most of this time span. Before bicycles, there were horses, oxen, and human transport, which were livable, but not exactly ideal. Bicycles were an improvement, followed by automobiles as a better improvement. The locals did quite well with horses, mules, oxen, trains, and boats. Actually, from all I can discover, draught animals, other then dogs, were absent from the N.American scene from mankind's arrival, some 25,000 years ago, until the Spanish arrived in the 1500's, some 500 years ago. Since there were no bicycles, horses, mules, oxen, trains and boats, during that period the logic espoused would indicate that the area lacked human inhabitants for that period :-? Incidentally, in 2002 there was a TV reality show with several modern families trying to live like homesteaders on the Montana frontier of 1883: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House Obviously, no automobiles. Bicycles would have been possible, but would have been rather quaint: https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+1883&tbm=isch As I vaguely recall, of the 4 families, 3 did badly and would not have survived the winter. One gave up. One cheated a little by finding a modern bedspring. Their homes were more a survival exercise than livable, with or without bicycles. My experience is that, "of course it is livable", but it is a hell of a lot of work. When I was in grade school my grand parents were still heating their house with wood stoves. My grandfather cut his winter wood in September. The whole month of it, every day, all day. By hand. -- Cheers, John B. |
#305
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 22:52:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-) I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules, unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to electronics going over bumps) were not so easy. I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road. Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average slope is therefo 465 / 5280 = 8.8% I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today. It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all flat, but in my area, very little is flat. So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles were available? I like your logic. The area has probably been inhabited for about 10,000+ years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas Last time I checked, bicycles were not available for most of this time span. Before bicycles, there were horses, oxen, and human transport, which were livable, but not exactly ideal. Bicycles were an improvement, followed by automobiles as a better improvement. The locals did quite well with horses, mules, oxen, trains, and boats. Incidentally, in 2002 there was a TV reality show with several modern families trying to live like homesteaders on the Montana frontier of 1883: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House Obviously, no automobiles. Bicycles would have been possible, but would have been rather quaint: https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+1883&tbm=isch As I vaguely recall, of the 4 families, 3 did badly and would not have survived the winter. One gave up. One cheated a little by finding a modern bedspring. Their homes were more a survival exercise than livable, with or without bicycles. I just have to comment :-) Sleeping without a "modern bedspring" is a survival exercise? -- Cheers, John B. |
#306
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:38:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: I just have to comment :-) Sleeping without a "modern bedspring" is a survival exercise? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House The Clunes are found to have smuggled a modern box-spring into their home. As I recall from the show, the bed was a wooden frame, with ropes laced at rather wide intervals. On top of that, some straw and some blankets. That doesn't sound very comfortable. It was also inspiration behind the term "sleep tight" which was in reference to tightening the ropes. I don't recall if they were sleeping 2, 3, or 4 to a bed, but with such an arrangement, I presume that everyone rolled towards the middle of the bed. I suspect they weren't getting much sleep. As they walked around their homestead, they found a 1920's(?) vintage spring mattress. According to the rules, they were not allowed to use anything made after than 1883(?), but they snuck it into the house anyway and replaced the ropes with the spring mattress. One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers. Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was limited and probably destined to fail. Wanting a better bed to sleep upon was part of that. https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/frontierhouse/frontierlife/essay5_3.html (See 2nd paragraph for comments on frontier beds) -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#307
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:00:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:38:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: I just have to comment :-) Sleeping without a "modern bedspring" is a survival exercise? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House The Clunes are found to have smuggled a modern box-spring into their home. As I recall from the show, the bed was a wooden frame, with ropes laced at rather wide intervals. On top of that, some straw and some blankets. That doesn't sound very comfortable. It was also inspiration behind the term "sleep tight" which was in reference to tightening the ropes. I don't recall if they were sleeping 2, 3, or 4 to a bed, but with such an arrangement, I presume that everyone rolled towards the middle of the bed. I suspect they weren't getting much sleep. As they walked around their homestead, they found a 1920's(?) vintage spring mattress. According to the rules, they were not allowed to use anything made after than 1883(?), but they snuck it into the house anyway and replaced the ropes with the spring mattress. One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers. Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was limited and probably destined to fail. Wanting a better bed to sleep upon was part of that. https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/frontierhouse/frontierlife/essay5_3.html (See 2nd paragraph for comments on frontier beds) I've seen the remains of several "old" houses. Essentially the shacks that the settlers lived in and they were hardly large enough for beds. I can only assume that they slept on the floor. Years ago my mother had a "History of the Town of Weare" (New Hampshire) that recounted things that occurred during the early days. "Back in the day" The Preacher was "paid" a gallon of brandy a year in addition to his salary. One family who got there late in the year lived the winter in a three sided shack. Three walls, a roof, and the fireplace :-). They were said to have survived the winter eating corn meal. -- Cheers, John B. |
#308
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 7/25/2018 3:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers. Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was limited and probably destined to fail. I'm always interested in how people lived in years past. My wife and I recently finished watching the BBC series _The Victorian Farm_ and _The Tudor Monastery Farm_. I love the book _Daily Life in Holland in the year 1566_. ... and so on. But it's important to realize these shows are TV productions, intended to deliver eyeballs to advertisers. _Pioneer House_ would have gotten far fewer viewers if the typical American couch potato couldn't identify with the subjects. And perversely, people like to see failure. Everyone looks at the videos of Tour de France crashes, NASCAR wrecks, figure skating slips, etc. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#309
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 7/25/2018 10:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/25/2018 3:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers. Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was limited and probably destined to fail. I'm always interested in how people lived in years past. My wife and I recently finished watching the BBC series _The Victorian Farm_ and _The Tudor Monastery Farm_. I love the book _Daily Life in Holland in the year 1566_. ... and so on. But it's important to realize these shows are TV productions, intended to deliver eyeballs to advertisers. _Pioneer House_ would have gotten far fewer viewers if the typical American couch potato couldn't identify with the subjects. And perversely, people like to see failure. Everyone looks at the videos of Tour de France crashes, NASCAR wrecks, figure skating slips, etc. I read this recently: https://www.alibris.com/Trials-of-th...533?matches=83 Memoirs of a woman who homesteaded in Arkansas and Mississippi late 1800s ~ early 1900s including near the nascent Parchman's Farm. Written in the 1930s for a depression-era writing contest but not published until 1992. Fascinating detail of American life as lived then. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#310
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 7/25/2018 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2018 10:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/25/2018 3:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed at living in the past.Â* None had any survial training. None seemed to be into camping or the outdoors.Â* All were confirmed city slickers. Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was limited and probably destined to fail. I'm always interested in how people lived in years past. My wife and I recently finished watching the BBC series _The Victorian Farm_ and _The Tudor Monastery Farm_. I love the book _Daily Life in Holland in the year 1566_. ... and so on. But it's important to realize these shows are TV productions, intended to deliver eyeballs to advertisers. _Pioneer House_ would have gotten far fewer viewers if the typical American couch potato couldn't identify with the subjects. And perversely, people like to see failure. Everyone looks at the videos of Tour de France crashes, NASCAR wrecks, figure skating slips, etc. I read this recently: https://www.alibris.com/Trials-of-th...533?matches=83 Memoirs of a woman who homesteaded in Arkansas and Mississippi late 1800s ~ early 1900s including near the nascent Parchman's Farm.Â* Written in the 1930s for a depression-era writing contest but not published until 1992. Fascinating detail of American life as lived then. OK! Just ordered it from www.abebooks.com -- - Frank Krygowski |
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