Tire Making, episode four

On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.

The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve
its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in
order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon
black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at
the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and
wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:|

?
~

On 15 Jan, 04:54, DougC wrote:
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:

......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.

Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive, fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.


The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve
its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in
order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon
black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at
the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another.

as does zinc oxide.


Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?

Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.

Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and
wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:|

?

Who wants to buy a car with four corners of rust?

thirty-six wrote:

DougC wrote:

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.

Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive,

drugs

fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.

Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they
don't.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?

Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.

Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
DougC wrote:
No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive,

drugs

fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.

Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they
don't.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?
Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.

Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.

Chalo

I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1
and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open
silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were
available to us.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 15 Jan, 18:10, AMuzi wrote:
Chalo wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
DougC wrote:
No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive,

drugs

fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.

Huh? *If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. *But they
don't.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?
Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.

Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? *Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.

Chalo

I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1
and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open
silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were
available to us.


White strips? Latex is generally clear or nearly so in thin
sections.

On Jan 14, 9:54*pm, DougC wrote:
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:

......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.


Dear Doug,

The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have
poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as
1985:

http://tinyurl.com/ydunnws

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 15 Jan, 07:01, "
wrote:
On Jan 14, 9:54*pm, DougC wrote:

On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:

......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.

Dear Doug,

The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have
poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as
1985:

*http://tinyurl.com/ydunnws


and those compounds which are successful in improving wet grip also
result in greater rolling resistance, so the tread has to be made
thinner to compensate.