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#1
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
Andy Coggan says “heart rate is at best redundant and at worst
misleading”. Freddie says “cadence is a red herring”. Andy agrees with freddie on cadence, freddie agrees with andy on heart rate. I had never heard of Andy Coggan before I poked my head in here a couple of weeks ago. I had to do a little research; I found that he wrote a book. I asked a few friends of mine if they had ever heard of him. One of them is a coach with a PhD in exercise physiology, and another is in grad school for the same discipline. The PhD said he read the book and it was pretty good. The post grad said (quoting here) “Coggan is perceived as God by many in our field, but he appears to be a dick when he posts on those forums.” When I mentioned the current thread on HR and cadence, both the post grad and the PhD said they agreed with the basic premise that HR was too variable to be a reliable training tool on its own, but neither one agrees with the sentiment “heart rate is at best redundant and at worst misleading”. The post grad didn’t feel qualified to comment on the cadence issue, but the PhD said “that’s odd, Coggans book is full of workouts with cadence and heart rate targets”. So, I borrowed his copy. ** From Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan Page 300 VO2max: Race-winning Intervals, Ride 2 “for the main set, start out with 5 minutes at threshold, then ride for 2 minutes at just above threshold (your heart rate will rise about 5 bpm). Bring it back down to threshold pace. For example, if your threshold power is 300 watts and your threshold heart rate is 170 BPM, ride at 300 watts for 5 minutes, then bring the power up to 320 watts for 2 minutes, raising your heart rate to 175 BPM, then back off again to a power of 300 watts again. When your heart rate reaches 170 BPM again, or when the 3 minutes is up, bring it back up to 320 watts (175 BPM) Page 301 Anaerobic Capacity: FTP and Sweet Spot “Begin the 45-minute main set by hitting 100 percent of FTHR (functional threshold heart rate) in a 5 minute effort to get the legs ready. Do another 5-minute effort at 80 percent of your FTHR” (Wait...I thought heart rate was “at best redundant and at worst misleading”. Seems I should go get my HR strap from the trash!) Page 285 Cadence Drills: “Ultimately you are hoping power and heart rate remain low at the higher cadence so you can become more efficient at harder efforts. Warm up with cadence in the 90-95 rpm range. Start the main set with six 1- minute on, 1-minute off fast pedaling cadence efforts. Ride 10 minutes easy, then do two 5-minute efforts, trying to get wattage to FTP and hold it there. RPE should be 5; keep cadence at 100 rpm.” Page 287 Tempo: Basic Ride 1 “warm up at a high cadence, 95-105 rpm. Begin a solid 35-minute tempo effort. Keep the pressure on and have fun – this is a fast but achievable pace. Keep your cadence in the 90-95 RPM range and make sure you get into a nice breathing rhythm” (Wait, didn’t freddie say cadence is a ‘red herring’? Didn’t andy say ‘there’s no reason to measure cadence’ in response to Hunters assertion that ‘cadence plays a vital role in maximizing power’? Good thing I haven’t posted my cadence sensors on Ebay yet!) ** As a point of reference, every single one of the workouts listed in the 30 page workout section has an accompanying chart showing the percentage of FTHR one should look for. These are just a few of the dozen+ examples of how ‘irrelevant’ cadence and heart rate are in fitness and race training. They are so ‘irrelevant’, that andy lists specific cadence numbers and HR metrics for certain workouts, actually referencing to _both_ heart rate and cadence in the cadence drill. So, what have we learned? We’ve learned that – despite andy and freddies assertions to the contrary, HR and cadence _are_ in fact valuable training tools. Freddie likes to toss out the canard that “cadence is a red herring”. He does this with a simple schoolboy trick of showing that torque can be derived from power, therefore the constituents of _proper_ torque measurement that necessarily involve the length and angular velocity of the torque arm (pedal crank) are rendered moot. The resultant claim being “cadence is irrelevant”. Well, as we can see from Coggans book and the research papers I linked in the iBike pro thread, cadence is _quite_ relevant. Actually, the red herring here is torque. Freddie makes a cute little chart with as much useful training information as my 6-year-old niece’s crayola excursions. This chart tells us absolutely nothing that power doesn’t. Why? Because deriving torque from power is completely linear. All freddie is doing by presenting us with derived torque is to show us that he knows middle-school algebra, xy = z. If you’ve been following the iBike Power meter thread, you’ll note that I linked peer-reviewed research to support my positions. Did we get any peer-reviewed research from andy or freddie supporting their positions? No. We got a school-boy math trick from freddie and andys rather condescending dismissal of his colleagues work. Nothing beyond opinions. Andy and his pathetic little sycophant freddie have been busy proffering dubious and unsupportable proposition using net bullying tactics to drive skeptics away, freddie going so far as to laughably brag about making people his RBT bitches. Well, that hasn’t worked with me, and I think I’ve proven quite conclusively how complete full of **** he is. I’ve also revealed something very curious about andy – he claims HR and cadence are completely irrelevant, yet he wrote a book that uses the two metrics as targeted training metrics. There is some _serious_ dysfunction going on there. Andy will backpedal his position like he did when I pointed out he used HRPO as a metric when performing his Dmax test. Freddie will simply dismiss the whole thing with no supportable evidence (other than his useless torque plot) and most likely make another mother joke. I’ll leave it up to them to try to explain to everyone here why they are right with no supporting evidence other than their own bloviated sense of self-worth, in the face of mountains of peer- reviewed evidence to the contrary, including andy’s own published work. Personally, I don’t care. Freddie is a useless internet baboon whose opinion carries as much credibility as...well,.. a baboon. Andy has some bizarre issues going on, and it’s really sad to see someone with so much potential that has contributed so much to the field descending into some dark mental state. It’s also quite ironic, because while Andy and I have agreed on nothing here, I fully agree with the philosophy in his book. So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really see no use in further participation here. |
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#2
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
Rate, innit?
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#3
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
I read the discussion you had with Andy on this topic, and here's my
take. Andy's right and you're wrong, and the fact that he's an expert and has made you look like a dimwit has ****ed you off. I'm pretty sure that's what nearly everyone else thinks, too. thanks, Brad Anders |
#4
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
Zencyle/NecrophiliacBoy ranted:
[snip] Dumbass, Nice meltdown. Come on back to rbr the next time you have a little problem with basic arithmetic. No, no, not because we'll help, it's cuz we can always use the entertainment. |
#5
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
On Sep 16, 4:59*pm, zencycle wrote:
So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really see no use in further participation here. Another uppity anonymous ankle-nipper whines because he got stepped on by bigger men. Run, rabbit, run. Andre Jute Never more brutal than he has to be -- Nelson Mandela |
#6
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
Sell your HRM, cadence equip, that goddamn book and Powertap on ebay
and use the proceeds to buy EPO. It's what every winning **** in the peloton does and has been doing for 20 yrs + now. |
#7
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
On Sep 16, 12:52*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sep 16, 4:59*pm, zencycle wrote: So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really see no use in further participation here. Another uppity anonymous ankle-nipper whines because he got stepped on by bigger men. Who (Coggan) took the high ground throughout, when dealing with someone who didn't. And took the time to (or try to) straighten someone out who really really really didn't want to hear it. "Cesspool, frustrations, empty vapid lives", just grabbing a small sample there. Stinky. What can I say, I'm certified dinosaur old-school and today is the first time I've ever wanted to go get a power meter g. (the g is intended to indicate an ironic statement that nevertheless applauds the content-- and tone-- of the posts I read) --D-y |
#8
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
On Sep 16, 2:01*pm, --D-y wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:52*pm, Andre Jute wrote: On Sep 16, 4:59*pm, zencycle wrote: So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really see no use in further participation here. Another uppity anonymous ankle-nipper whines because he got stepped on by bigger men. Who (Coggan) took the high ground throughout, when dealing with someone who didn't. And took the time to (or try to) straighten someone out who really really really didn't want to hear it. "Cesspool, frustrations, empty vapid lives", just grabbing a small sample there. Stinky. What can I say, I'm certified dinosaur old-school and today is the first time I've ever wanted to go get a power meter g. (the g is intended to indicate an ironic statement that nevertheless applauds the content-- and tone-- of the posts I read) --D-y Power Cranks. Get with the program. Coz |
#9
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
On Sep 16, 8:59*am, zencycle wrote:
Andy Coggan says “heart rate is at best redundant and at worst misleading”. Freddie says “cadence is a red herring”. Andy agrees with freddie on cadence, freddie agrees with andy on heart rate. I had never heard of Andy Coggan before I poked my head in here a couple of weeks ago. I had to do a little research; I found that he wrote a book. I asked a few friends of mine if they had ever heard of him. One of them is a coach with a PhD in exercise physiology, and another is in grad school for the same discipline. The PhD said he read the book and it was pretty good. The post grad said (quoting here) “Coggan is perceived as God by many in our field, but he appears to be a dick when he posts on those forums.” When I mentioned the current thread on HR and cadence, both the post grad and the PhD said they agreed with the basic premise that HR was too variable to be a reliable training tool on its own, but neither one agrees with the sentiment “heart rate is at best redundant and at worst misleading”. The post grad didn’t feel qualified to comment on the cadence issue, but the PhD said “that’s odd, Coggans book is full of workouts with cadence and heart rate targets”. So, I borrowed his copy. ** From *Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan Page 300 VO2max: Race-winning Intervals, Ride 2 “for the main set, start out with 5 minutes at threshold, then ride for 2 minutes at just above threshold (your heart rate will rise about 5 bpm). Bring it back down to threshold pace. For example, if your threshold power is 300 watts and your threshold heart rate is 170 BPM, ride at 300 watts for 5 minutes, then bring the power up to 320 watts for 2 minutes, raising your heart rate to 175 BPM, then back off again to a power of 300 watts again. When your heart rate reaches 170 BPM again, or when the 3 minutes is up, bring it back up to 320 watts (175 BPM) Page 301 Anaerobic Capacity: FTP and Sweet Spot “Begin the 45-minute main set by hitting 100 percent of FTHR (functional threshold heart rate) in a 5 minute effort to get the legs ready. Do another 5-minute effort at 80 percent of your FTHR” (Wait...I thought heart rate was “at best redundant and at worst misleading”. Seems I should go get my HR strap from the trash!) Page 285 Cadence Drills: “Ultimately you are hoping power and heart rate remain low at the higher cadence so you can become more efficient at harder efforts. Warm up with cadence in the 90-95 rpm range. Start the main set with six 1- minute on, 1-minute off fast pedaling cadence efforts. Ride 10 minutes easy, then do two 5-minute efforts, trying to get wattage to FTP and hold it there. RPE should be 5; keep cadence at 100 rpm.” Page 287 Tempo: Basic Ride 1 “warm up at a high cadence, 95-105 rpm. Begin a solid 35-minute tempo effort. Keep the pressure on and have fun – this is a fast but achievable pace. Keep your cadence in the 90-95 RPM range and make sure you get into a nice breathing rhythm” (Wait, didn’t freddie say cadence is a ‘red herring’? Didn’t andy say ‘there’s no reason to measure cadence’ in response to Hunters assertion that ‘cadence plays a vital role in maximizing power’? Good thing I haven’t posted my cadence sensors on Ebay yet!) ** As a point of reference, every single one of the workouts listed in the 30 page workout section has an accompanying chart showing the percentage of FTHR one should look for. These are just a few of the dozen+ examples of how ‘irrelevant’ cadence and heart rate are in fitness and race training. They are so ‘irrelevant’, that andy lists specific cadence numbers and HR metrics for certain workouts, actually referencing to _both_ heart rate and cadence in the cadence drill. So, what have we learned? We’ve learned that – despite andy and freddies assertions to the contrary, HR and cadence _are_ in fact valuable training tools. Freddie likes to toss out the canard that “cadence is a red herring”. He does this with a simple schoolboy trick of showing that torque can be derived from power, therefore the constituents of _proper_ torque measurement that necessarily involve the length and angular velocity of the torque arm (pedal crank) are rendered moot. The resultant claim being “cadence is irrelevant”. Well, as we can see from Coggans book and the research papers I linked in the iBike pro thread, cadence is _quite_ relevant. Actually, the red herring here is torque. Freddie makes a cute little chart with as much useful training information as my 6-year-old niece’s crayola excursions. This chart tells us absolutely nothing that power doesn’t. Why? Because deriving torque from power is completely linear. All freddie is doing by presenting us with derived torque is to show us that he knows middle-school algebra, xy = z. If you’ve been following the iBike Power meter thread, you’ll note that I linked peer-reviewed research to support my positions. Did we get any peer-reviewed research from andy or freddie supporting their positions? No. We got a school-boy math trick from freddie and andys rather condescending dismissal of his colleagues work. *Nothing beyond opinions. Andy and his pathetic little sycophant freddie have been busy proffering dubious and unsupportable proposition using net bullying tactics to drive skeptics away, freddie going so far as to laughably brag about making people his RBT bitches. Well, that hasn’t worked with me, and I think I’ve proven quite conclusively how complete full of **** he is. I’ve also revealed something very curious about andy – he claims HR and cadence are completely irrelevant, yet he wrote a book that uses the two metrics as targeted training metrics. There is some _serious_ dysfunction going on there. Andy will backpedal his position like he did when I pointed out he used HRPO as a metric when performing his Dmax test. Freddie will simply dismiss the whole thing with no supportable evidence (other than his useless torque plot) and most likely make another mother joke. I’ll leave it up to them to try to explain to everyone here why they are right with no supporting evidence other than their own bloviated sense of self-worth, in the face of mountains of peer- reviewed evidence to the contrary, including andy’s own published work. Personally, I don’t care. Freddie is a useless internet baboon whose opinion carries as much credibility as...well,.. a baboon. Andy has some bizarre issues going on, and it’s really sad to see someone with so much potential that has contributed so much to the field descending into some dark mental state. It’s also quite ironic, because while Andy and I have agreed on nothing here, *I fully agree with the philosophy in his book. So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really see no use in further participation here. Logic isn't your strong suit, huh? |
#10
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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate
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