WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

AMuzi wrote:

Carl Sundquist wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 1:40 am, AMuzi wrote:

Nice clean Waterford open track
frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

What does "open" mean in your sentence above.

I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
handlebar tape stops.

We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".

"Step through" is my choice, when a "ladies' frame" isn't actually a
lady's frame.

Chalo

Andre Jute wrote:

The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.

That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
that they'll be getting any business from me personally.

I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

Chalo

On Apr 25, 7:58*am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:34*am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:

(p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
explicitly specified in great detail.)

Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ

I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a
joke

Let's refine that for you. The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

But you know, Ronni, this thread wouldn't have happened if Seaton
didn't decide to slap me in the face with the Godiva. Weren't you the
one telling us yesterday that Seaton would get away with it? Did you
really expect me to let it go?

Some guy on the interwebs mocks your bike and you try to shut him up by writing
a tantrum about some company that has nothing whatever to do with any of this.
Please, explain how that works. Or will you just get revenge by typing something
mean about Verizon?

I really don't understand what you're on about, Ronni. You're spouting
off conspiracy theories ("revenge"!) and you haven't even read the
original post about which you're spouting off, which answers all you
questions. Just in case you have, and your attention span let you
down, I answer your questions in easily digestible numbered form:

1. I didn't choose Waterford. Seaton chose Waterford as the reference.

2. I didn't choose the Godiva. Seaton chose the Godiva as the
reference.

3. I didn't choose Waterford's pricing as the decisive element. Seaton
and a whole bunch of hypocritical RBT clowns chose Waterford's pricing
as the reference by their repeated remarks about the price of my
German bike.

4. I looked into Waterford before and at that time merely said I
considered their bikes too much money for too little value and excused
myself.

5. But when Waterford is publicly held up to me as the paragon of
virtue against which I should measure my choices, as Seaton did, and
I'm abused for not measuring up, then I go look hard to see if
Waterford measures up.

6. Waterford doesn't measure up to their own prices. Their Godiva
certainly doesn't even measure up to the hubs of any of my bikes, or
of Bob Jackson or Mercian, or of any of the Dutch and Swiss baukasten
bikes I considered. Waterford prices are a joke, precisely as I said.

7. I've known this all along but said nothing, as is my practice about
commercial firms, until they or their partisans put themselves in my
face. Seaton put Waterford in my face like a wet fish.

8. It isn't my problem if Waterford's boosters are incompetents who
don't check their facts before they spout off in public. I'm just
correction their wrong assumptions and grossly wrong conclusions.

9. Waterford got a very fair deal from me, a comparison of like for
like. In fact it is flattering Waterford to compare their bikes with
the likes of Utopia, Patria, Bob Jackson and Mercian. Waterford really
belongs a step or two lower, with the common or garden bikes, against
which they would look even more overpriced.

You should do your homework, Ronni, before you write in with
conspiratorial rubbish like "revenge". At a minimum you should read
the thread and discover who chose the references.

Andre Jute
Can't say fairer than that, guv

On Apr 25, 9:38*am, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.

When I was looking last year, I was more impressed with the individual
bike makers in the States, a handful of whom are doing truly
innovative work. (I found the vast majority depressing, but that is to
be expected; however, it was surprising how many famous names made
dull bikes, in my estimation of course.)

That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
that they'll be getting any business from me personally.

Mmm. There are pedigrees and pedigrees.

I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

I had the same experience with the British custom builders, though
admittedly I wanted something quite a bite more uncommon than you did.
Their promise, explicit or implicit, of building anything you want to
pay for doesn't stand up past a garish paintjob. What they really want
to build is what they built before, and preferably what they already
have tubes for in their racks. I was treated with great courtesy by
Bob Jackson, for instance, but they weren't keen on special projects
that didn't fit the generic road bike/mountain bike outlines. Same
with all the others. I was getting so desperate I was looking at David
Bohm bikes on the net... the carriage from the States would been a
killer.

In the end, patience did give each of us the bike we wanted.
Hallelujah!

Andre Jute
Patience is a learned skill

On Apr 25, 9:25*am, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Carl Sundquist wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 1:40 am, AMuzi wrote:

Nice clean Waterford open track
frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

What does "open" mean in your sentence above.

I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
handlebar tape stops.

We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".

"Step through" is my choice, when a "ladies' frame" isn't actually a
lady's frame.

Chalo

The Continentals and sometimes the British use "trapeze" for that
parallellogram form of the Godiva. I like trapeze as pretty visually
descriptive.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html

On Apr 25, 9:14*am, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Godiva? Way too complex.
Nice clean Waterford open track frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

YMMV.

That's a nice bike. *As in "look what I nice bike I found at the swap
meet."

For three grand,

A frame with polished lugs from Waterford is probably more like four
grand, over four grand if you want the good Rohloff dropouts and a
paintjob to suit that high style. -- AJ

a bike frame had better be *special*. *Like, "nobody
in the world ever saw a bike like that" special, in a good way. *Being
technically unique but fundamentally ordinary, with tasty paint and
lugs, won't do it.

And anybody who wants me take a bike with tubies must pay me to do
it. *Sewups rank below their classmates, block chain and 13/16"
seatposts, on my wish list.

Chalo

On Apr 24, 5:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
*http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
*I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, *here,http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
*reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
*or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5...
*and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.

WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.

IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixtehttp://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
*is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.

There are frames made in different parts of the world that are
different prices? Astonishing!!

We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Do
you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?

RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:37:11 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:06?am, Dan O wrote:

I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around e.g.
Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale
Gotta be a Cannondale. Smooth welding and beautiful lines. Last year I
had a Cannondale Trekking Rohloff (probably a European-only model) on
order but the factory sold out just as my order went in. Wonderfully
satisfying custom-designed dropouts. -- AJ
who givesa****? cut that sucker up and put it under the microscope -
i'll tell you what's beautiful.

Better yet, throw a leg over it and ride. You'll probably prefer the Klein that
was mentioned next before this all got cut up for comment. Oh, and Andre would
prefer the far prettier joint work and welding. Klein kept doing goofy
non-industry-standard stuff that probably didn't help their marketing

"probably"??? make that "definitely" ron.


but they
had some great ideas and designs and could build an aluminum bike that rode as
nicely as any.

that's because they not only figured out the torsional stiffness thing,
but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for that.




and Klein and the
like; but since I started out acquiring older, used (more affordable)
bicycles, I have a bunch of gear now for 126 mm rear dropout spacing,
and most of the quality frames available for this gear just happens to
be made of steel.

typically, aluminum is:
cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
lighter
more corrosion resistant.
is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
missing out on?
methinks you must be immune, anyway ;-)

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:35�am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.
How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.
it's attributing more value to the aesthetics than the tech, that's why.
� tech news group, remember?

What, you can only post here if you use exclusive ugly gear? Wakey,
wakey, Jumbo, half or more the bikes in America are sold for people to
look cool on, not for an functional or technical superiority.

how the **** would you know? just because a few whiners on r.b.t bleat
about bikes that cost more then $500? just like they whine about their
fictional "brittleness" of cfrp when in fact, they're really bitching
because they can't afford it?



Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:
snip more steel blathering

andre, examine the facts associated with the following:

corrosion
price
stiffness
weight

Yes, but since my steel bike is vastly overspecified

translation: "overpriced".


for any demand I
will ever place on it in service, the parameters are quite irrelevant.
My technical interest is in the gearboxes and the tyres, and it is
notable that my steel bike is lighter than two ali bikes I have with
roughly the same spec (hub gearboxes, hub dynamoes, full touring/city
gear). I find both ali and steel frames satisfactory, but steel more
so for inexpressible reasons as well as those inherent in the design
differences between the bikes.

give us a break andre.



now quitcher bitchin.

Eh, you're changing side are you? You now reckon that complaining
about excessive Waterford pricing is "bitching". Make up your mind,
Jumbo. (Nah,, don't bother. I'm just trolling you. I know you wouldn't
waste Waterford money on a mere bike, even a carbon one.)

Andre Jute
Carpals of iron. IRON! I tell you. -- Ron Bales on Andre Jute

i'm all about having you quit your incessant trolling. see above.

P. Chisholm wrote:
On Apr 24, 5:45�pm, Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
�http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
�I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, �here,http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
�reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
�or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5...
�and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.

WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.

IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixtehttp://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
�is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright � 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.

There are frames made in different parts of the world that are
different prices? Astonishing!!

We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Do
you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?

that's demeaning to women.