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#51
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
A Muzi wrote:
Chalo wrote: A Muzi wrote: Chalo wrote: I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were willing to make an alternative recommendation. Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? *Look at the relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. *That's an example of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a remarkable piece of work. As a matter of fact, I would not. I'm 'medium Italian' (I ride everyone's sample size!) I just recalled that photo as an impressive piece. And I'm surely not an expert; I often defer to Waterford (or Zinn) for the tall realm (up to about 65cm I could advise with reasonable experience) My point is that if the bike were scaled down to say, 56cm frame size, some of the other dimensions would be completely effed. I did a little Carl Fogel style on-screen measurement and applied a conversion ratio to turn the Yao Ming frame into a 56cm level top tube frame. These are some of the other dimensions I got from that ciphering: 29cm chainstay 50cm top tube, center to center 54cm front center Call me crazy, but I don't think you would find a bike built that way to be a particularly sweet ride. Chalo |
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#52
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
On Apr 25, 1:55*pm, "P. Chisholm" wrote:
On Apr 24, 5:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote: WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies by Andre Jute Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and other Americans, touting for business for their own industry, suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model: *http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655 *I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on, eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic roots. Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The pricelist, *here,http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655 *reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up, getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box "pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825. No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down, and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro. Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate. So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and fork with pinstriping. GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD -- FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE! Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts, and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050 cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or garden frame, that is for a very special frame. Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp *or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5... *and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork with a distinguished road pedigree. WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD, GO UPMARKET Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars, essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything. A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson, fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest. You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more sane. Waterford is a joke. IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE? There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames appear to be bog-standard and dull. The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixtehttp://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html *is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass American stupidity.) A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty commonplace really. What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte. Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell. Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit netsites. For any other use approach the author. There are frames made in different parts of the world that are different prices? Astonishing!! You're right. I was astonished to discover Waterford charges three to five times as much as distinguished makers like Bob Jackson and Mercian for a frame and fork. Even more amazed that Waterford gets away with it. Congratulations on having a Waterford dealership, Peter; the margin on Waterford bikes must be pleasing. We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Waterford makes a mixte frame? Under what name? If you're going to claim the Godiva is a mixte, don't, it will just show your ignorance. As a bike dealer you really should be better informed, Peter. The profile of a mixte looks like it has an extra stay between the seatstay and the chainstay. The Godiva doesn't. Even Waterford isn't greedy enough to tell the outright lie that the Godiva is a mixte, though their overly-careful denial probably leaves their thicker dealers believing that they did so claim. Here in the civilized EU that Waterford ad for the Godiva would be the subject of a complaint to the advertising standards authority on the first day it tried to mislead, and might easily fail to satisfy the trades descriptions acts (which forbid false advertising claims) in a whole variety of countries. Do you need a step thru for your skirt Andre? Nah, I'm not a shaveleg roadie in a tutu, but thanks for the offer, m'lady. Andre Jute A roadie in full fig, arse in the air, is a visual incitement to "pour encourager les autres" |
#53
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
On Apr 25, 2:17*pm, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 4:35 am, jim beam wrote: Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam wrote: Andre Jute wrote: I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. if the mechanicals are good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your ability to ride the damned thing. How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on your face. it's attributing more value to the aesthetics than the tech, that's why. tech news group, remember? What, you can only post here if you use exclusive ugly gear? Wakey, wakey, Jumbo, half or more the bikes in America are sold for people to look cool on, not for an functional or technical superiority. how the **** would you know? *just because a few whiners on r.b.t bleat about bikes that cost more then $500? *just like they whine about their fictional "brittleness" of cfrp when in fact, they're really bitching because they can't afford it? Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money and pedigree in steel bikes: snip more steel blathering andre, examine the facts associated with the following: corrosion price stiffness weight Yes, but since my steel bike is vastly overspecified translation: "overpriced". You don't know what I paid for it, Jumbo. But I feel I got value for every penny, and that's what matters. for any demand I will ever place on it in service, the parameters are quite irrelevant. My technical interest is in the gearboxes and the tyres, and it is notable that my steel bike is lighter than two ali bikes I have with roughly the same spec (hub gearboxes, hub dynamoes, full touring/city gear). I find both ali and steel frames satisfactory, but steel more so for inexpressible reasons as well as those inherent in the design differences between the bikes. give us a break andre. I'm serious. You and I are generally on the same side on materials properties and uses. But I have vast experience of discriminating matters of taste from strict engineering, and you should give me a break there if you expect a break on materials science. now quitcher bitchin. Eh, you're changing side are you? You now reckon that complaining about excessive Waterford pricing is "bitching". Make up your mind, Jumbo. (Nah, don't bother. I'm just trolling you. I know you wouldn't waste Waterford money on a mere bike, even a carbon one.) Andre Jute *Carpals of iron. IRON! I tell you. -- Ron Bales on Andre Jute i'm all about having you quit your incessant trolling. *see above. You're two bellylaughs and a hamburger patty short of sense of humour, my man. But never mind. Just laugh at every third sentence of mine and no one will notice your handicap. Andre Jute A roadie in full fig, arse in the air, is a visual incitement to "pour encourager les autres" |
#54
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
On Apr 25, 4:24*pm, AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 5:37 am, landotter wrote: On Apr 24, 7:45 pm, Andre Jute wrote: WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE [drivelsnip] Ott cut my original so that he could go off into fairyland without inconvenient facts. Like this one: Waterford ... do seem a few hundred bux overpriced to me--but whadda I know? You shoulda read the post you snipped, Ott. A base Waterford frame is twenty-two hundreds, $2200 pricier than a top pedigree British bike. That's not "a few" hundred as you try to pretend. The evidence you cut is repeated below for your information. -snip- $1300 actually:http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFD08DC2.JPG full custom, any imaginable color, prompt delivery. Second hand? -- AJ Quite competitive, assuming apples are not oranges -- Andrew Muzi * www.yellowjersey.org/ * Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
On Apr 25, 4:41*pm, AMuzi wrote:
-snipity snip- Chalo wrote: I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were willing to make an alternative recommendation. Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something? What's that, Fish People slang for, "Jesus, that one dangerous bike, throw you off on head first time you pedal hard." -- AJ |
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WHY AN ANDRE JUTE POST IS A JOKE
On Apr 25, 4:45*pm, "PatTX" wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: :: Peter Chisholm wrote: ::: [...] ::: We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. ::: Do you need a step thru for your skirt Andre? :: :: It is clear by now that Mr. Jute needs to justify his choices by :: denigrating everything else. :: :: -- :: Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 As he does with his opinions. If you disagree, you will be villified. I bet he never goes to a restaurant! (probably has been thrown out for denigrating what the other diners have chosen!). Pat in TX You may visit Andre's recipes at: http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html |
#57
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
On Apr 25, 5:35*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 24, 9:35*pm, Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 4:42*am, RonSonic wrote: On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 4:05*am, jim beam wrote: Andre Jute wrote: I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. *if the mechanicals are good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your ability to ride the damned thing. How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on your face. Andre Jute *"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo- Pelayo Ricart Medina yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar sometimes. Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians. Andre Jute The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy drink Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money and pedigree in steel bikes: Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong argument. Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do -- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples. Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford is the last of the big chargers. And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too, I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to *look it up) you get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays. I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long- established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes in the Benelux or Germany. There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. *As for hearth brazing and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. *Mercian uses air hardened steels, starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. *The Waterfords are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc. Some is obviously hype. I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the right to use the name. But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what you pay for. Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too high. YMMV. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size (63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic has adjusted to OS aluminum. Bingo. I too used to think that OS ali looked clumsy. Now I'm used to it and it looks so right that I had to adjust to the much slenderer steel tubes of my Utopia Kranich. I also don't know if modern steels are all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare. If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of steel. -- Jay Beattie. My bike comes with a ten year guarantee. If it breaks and they can't fix it, they give me a new frame. I reckon if it lasts ten years without breaking, it will last thirty. I didn't buy a steel bike on the technicalities. I just wanted a steel bike to see how it rides, and I always liked the looks of lugs. You only live once and you can't take it with you. (Not that I will need any money to bribe St Peter. He's conditioned to call Calvinists first.) Andre Jute Visit Jute on Bicycles at http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html |
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
Yawn. If you have a single point in refutation to make to my facts,
Ron Bales, now is the time. But you know my facts are irrefutable, so you descend to your normal infantile name-calling and motive- mongering. For the record, I didn't drag in Waterford, Seaton did. For the record, if Seaton had named a European bikemaker instead of the American Waterford Cycles, and I had said the same about a European maker, Bales would be dead quiet. It is specifically because Waterford is in the United States that we have this nonsense from Bales, who fears conspiracies to commit lese majeste. Andre Jute Iconographer--- er, sorry, iconoclast On Apr 25, 6:10*pm, RonSonic wrote: On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:24:48 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 7:58*am, RonSonic wrote: On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 4:34*am, RonSonic wrote: On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: (p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were explicitly specified in great detail.) Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a joke Let's refine that for you. The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would still be obscene. But you know, Ronni, this thread wouldn't have happened if Seaton didn't decide to slap me in the face with the Godiva. Weren't you the one telling us yesterday that Seaton would get away with it? Did you really expect me to let it go? Some guy on the interwebs mocks your bike and you try to shut him up by writing a tantrum about some company that has nothing whatever to do with any of this. Please, explain how that works. Or will you just get revenge by typing something mean about Verizon? I really don't understand what you're on about, Ronni. You're spouting off conspiracy theories ("revenge"!) and you haven't even read the original post about which you're spouting off, which answers all you questions. Just in case you have, and your attention span let you down, I answer your questions in easily digestible numbered form: 1. I didn't choose Waterford. Seaton chose Waterford as the reference. 2. I didn't choose the Godiva. Seaton chose the Godiva as the reference. 3. I didn't choose Waterford's pricing as the decisive element. Seaton and a whole bunch of hypocritical RBT clowns chose Waterford's pricing as the reference by their repeated remarks about the price of my German bike. 4. I looked into Waterford before and at that time merely said I considered their bikes too much money for too little value and excused myself. 5. But when Waterford is publicly held up to me as the paragon of virtue against which I should measure my choices, as Seaton did, and I'm abused for not measuring up, then I go look hard to see if Waterford measures up. 6. Waterford doesn't measure up to their own prices. Their Godiva certainly doesn't even measure up to the hubs of any of my bikes, or of Bob Jackson or Mercian, or of any of the Dutch and Swiss baukasten bikes I considered. Waterford prices are a joke, precisely as I said. 7. I've known this all along but said nothing, as is my practice about commercial firms, until they or their partisans put themselves in my face. Seaton put Waterford in my face like a wet fish. 8. It isn't my problem if Waterford's boosters are incompetents who don't check their facts before they spout off in public. I'm just correction their wrong assumptions and grossly wrong conclusions. 9. Waterford got a very fair deal from me, a comparison of like for like. In fact it is flattering Waterford to compare their bikes with the likes of Utopia, Patria, Bob Jackson and Mercian. Waterford really belongs a step or two lower, with the common or garden bikes, against which they would look even more overpriced. You should do your homework, Ronni, before you write in with conspiratorial rubbish like "revenge". At a minimum you should read the thread and discover who chose the references. Somebody on the interwebz makes fun of your girlie bike and you respond by ranting at a company that has nothing to do with any of this. When this is pointed out to you you go off on another typing tantrum to justify it. Even worse, the specifics of your criticism more or less prove that you don't know enough to compare these products, much less declare one of them "a joke." Jute, you're acting like a flake. Again. Yawn. If you have a single point in refutation to make to my facts, Ron Bales, now is the time. But you know my facts are irrefutable, so you descend to your normal infantile name-calling and motive- mongering. For the record, I didn't drag in Waterford, Seaton did. For the record, if Seaton had named a European bikemaker instead of the American Waterford Cycles, and I had said the same about a European maker, Bales would be dead quiet. It is specifically because Waterford is in the United States that we have this nonsense from Bales, who fears conspiracies to commit lese majeste. Andre Jute Iconographer--- er, sorry, iconoclast |
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A GOOD CHOICE
Andrew Muzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: On Apr 25, 5:37 am, landotter wrote: On Apr 24, 7:45 pm, Andre Jute wrote: WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE [drivelsnip] Ott cut my original so that he could go off into fairyland without inconvenient facts. Like this one: Waterford ... do seem a few hundred bux overpriced to me--but whadda I know? You shoulda read the post you snipped, Ott. A base Waterford frame is twenty-two hundreds, $2200 pricier than a top pedigree British bike. That's not "a few" hundred as you try to pretend. The evidence you cut is repeated below for your information. -snip- $1300 actually: http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFD08DC2.JPG full custom, any imaginable color, prompt delivery. Quite competitive, assuming apples are not oranges Hey, stop confusing the issue with facts! -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll |
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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A VALUE
Andre Jute wrote:
[...] I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the right to use the name. Richard Schwinn is the guy at Waterford Precision Cycles, so the connection to the Schwinn Paramount is obvious. As for the name, I doubt these people charged the bicycle company to use it: http://www.vi.waterford.wi.gov/. But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what you pay for. Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too high. YMMV. The also have the Gunnar line at lower prices for welded frames: http://www.gunnarbikes.com/. Made in the same building by the same workers as Waterford. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size (63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic has adjusted to OS aluminum. Bingo. I too used to think that OS ali looked clumsy. Now I'm used to it and it looks so right that I had to adjust to the much slenderer steel tubes of my Utopia Kranich. I also don't know if modern steels are all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare. If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of steel. -- Jay Beattie. My bike comes with a ten year guarantee. If it breaks and they can't fix it, they give me a new frame. I reckon if it lasts ten years without breaking, it will last thirty. I didn't buy a steel bike on the technicalities. I just wanted a steel bike to see how it rides, and I always liked the looks of lugs. You only live once and you can't take it with you. (Not that I will need any money to bribe St Peter. He's conditioned to call Calvinists first.) Presumption is a sin. -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll |
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