WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

In article
,
Dan O wrote:

On Apr 24, 7:35 pm, jim beam wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE An investigation consequent on
being hounded by American roadies by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom
Sherman and other Americans, touting for business for their own
industry, suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655 I looked,
shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with
historic roots. [...]
Godiva? Way too complex. Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

YMMV.

What am I missing here? How is the Godiva more complex, other
than cable guide braze-ons?

For value, I think this is much better:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php. $1150 for a custom
geometry frame.

what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? this group has been
grossly infected recently it seems.


I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around
e.g. Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale and Klein and
the like; but since I started out acquiring older, used (more
affordable) bicycles, I have a bunch of gear now for 126 mm rear
dropout spacing, and most of the quality frames available for this
gear just happens to be made of steel.

typically, aluminum is:

cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds

"Sable?"

lighter
more corrosion resistant.

less durable
less easily repaired

is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
missing out on?

Nope, you're definitely infected.

Aluminum can be a fine material with which to make a bike frame. And it
can be a poor choice, as I am sure you already know.

Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
Dan O wrote:

[...]
cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds

"Sable?"
[...]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Sable_bull.jpg

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Yawn. Ronni Bales, a janitor in Tampa, Florida, who has never ordered
a custom bike in his life, rants and raves because I didn't go about
ordering a custom bike the way he would have. Another netstalker who
knows better than I do what happened even though he wasn't there and I
was. Flick.

Andre Jute
Bored with this little man

On Apr 25, 6:40*pm, RonSonic wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 9:38*am, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.

When I was looking last year, I was more impressed with the individual
bike makers in the States, a handful of whom are doing truly
innovative work. (I found the vast majority depressing, but that is to
be expected;

Yes, your admitted ignorance of bicycles and the design thereof would certainly
lead you to not understand what is new or interesting or extraordinary. But
that's the usual for you, claim expertise until you stick your foot in it and
then demand consideration for yourself as a humble beginner.

That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
that they'll be getting any business from me personally.

Mmm. There are pedigrees and pedigrees.

And the Waterford pedigree stands with any.

I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

I had the same experience with the British custom builders, though
admittedly I wanted something quite a bite more uncommon than you did.
Their promise, explicit or implicit, of building anything you want to
pay for doesn't stand up past a garish paintjob. What they really want
to build is what they built before, and preferably what they already
have tubes for in their racks.

How about something more like "a frame type with which they have no experience
cannot be guaranteed to meet expectations at a reasonable price and even at an
unreasonable price, we are unwilling to turn the client into a beta tester."

Having experience in designing and building custom products, I can tell you that
while experimentation in unfamiliar lines can be enjoyable and offer future
benefits, it doesn't pay the bills. The necessary experimentation and R&D must
be paid for, either by the present client or the builder as an investment in a
future product offering. Exorbitantly expensive girlie bikes being such a small
niche, I'm not surprised you had difficulty finding a builder.

People who build custom products eventually learn better than to experiment on a
paying customer unless that customer already has a solid relationship with the
company, is knowledgeable enough to provide useful feedback, is mainstream
enough to provide feedback that will be useful in future cases and who
understands the whole project may result in disappointment. Even then it is
risky. Sorry, you either get a variation on a theme or an adaptation from prior
art.

For their ability to match tubing grades, thicknesses, frame geometry, fitments
and tubing manipulations, join it beautifully and soundly whether with lug,
fillet braze or tig, so that the whole is a coherent, elegant and functional
work perfectly suited to the rider, having you reduce it to a "garish paintjob"
is unfair.

I don't even know those guys, I don't buy, build or own any custom frames and
still I bristle to see some ignorant yahoo with delusions like yourself insult
their craft.

"Complaining about things you don't know about," used to be a private vice -
thanks to the interwebs you can inflict your ignorance on multitudes.

AMuzi wrote:
Chalo wrote:
I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

AMuzi wrote:
Some big guys get accommodated
:http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg
Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

Chalo wrote:
Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? Look at the
relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. That's an example
of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
remarkable piece of work.

As a matter of fact, I would not. I'm 'medium Italian' (I ride
everyone's sample size!)

I just recalled that photo as an impressive piece.

And I'm surely not an expert; I often defer to Waterford (or Zinn) for
the tall realm (up to about 65cm I could advise with reasonable experience)


I agree with Chalo, I had a similar experience. I have also spoken with
a few large people who, after going the custom route, weren't all that
happy. I looked at Zinn's bikes, just a quick perusal convinced me he's
clueless.

On Apr 25, 2:27*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Peter Chisholm wrote:
[...]
We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Do
you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?

It is clear by now that Mr. Jute needs to justify his choices by
denigrating everything else.

I haven't denigrated anything at all. I merely said the Waterford
frames are so overpriced that one can easily find superb equivalent
frames from distinguished British and other custom braziers for a
third down to as low as a fifth of the Waterford price.

All you clowns who hypocritically abused me for the price of my bike
(which you don't even know!), are now screeching because I burst your
bubble.

What's more, you and the other little hypocrites are screeching
because Waterford is an American brazier. If Russell Seaton had
chosen a French firm to hold up to me as an examplar, instead of
Waterford, you would say absolutely nothing about me ridiculing their
price list.

I repost the original post containing the amazing but true Waterford
prices below so the uncommitted reader can see or himself that I
didn't denigrate any bike or brazier.

I remains to be noted that I didn't choose Waterford for the
comparison. Russell Eaton, taunting me for having a "girlie bike", and
others harping on the price of my bike (which they don't even know),
claimed I should have shopped Waterford's Godiva instead. If Waterford
feels hard done by through my comparisons, they should blame Eaton,
Bales, Sherman and the other members of that little gang.

Andre Jute
Never more brutal than he has to be -- Nelson Mandela
(a blatantly unsubtle sig just for Ronni)

Here's the original, with the amazing numbers:

*******
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...c9 b6796b2ac5
and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.


WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.


IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. Any other use approach the author.

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

I repost the original post

Poor predictable Andre, so pleased with his little rant that he feels the
need to regurgitate it as many times as he can, not realising that his
repetition merely betrays his insecurity.

Even Pat in TX may visit Andre's recipes at:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html

On Apr 25, 11:34*pm, Tom Sherman wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

The also have the Gunnar line at lower prices for welded frames:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/. Made in the same building by the same
workers as Waterford.

Sorry, Tommi. For Waterford's Gunnar price of $1500-1600 and up once
you add the fork I can get a prestigious and competent brazed and/or
lugged frame -- or two even -- complete with fork in the UK or The
Netherlands or Germany.

Even if I were so poor I would accept welded steel, I could get all
kinds of fine frames delivered to my door by my regular mailorder bike
components dealer for a fraction of the Waterford/Gunnar price.

Waterford has absolutely no unique selling point that could in a
million years justify those prices. Okay, maybe some poor fashion
victim like Balesy wins the lottery, and there are always (in good
times anyway) nouveau riche whose possessions define them, who will be
happy to point to the big WATERFORD on the downtube as justification
for the price. But rationalists like me will always give Waterford/
Gunnar a big miss.

I'm sure they make beautifully finished bikes but Waterford doesn't
have anything we can't get elsewhere more conveniently and less
expensively -- and with a more prestigious pedigree, at least to the
cognoscenti.

Andre Jute
Too bad. Moving on.

On Apr 25, 11:51*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Chalo wrote:
I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

AMuzi wrote:
Some big guys get accommodated
:http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg
Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

Chalo wrote:
Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? *Look at the
relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. *That's an example
of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
remarkable piece of work.

As a matter of fact, I would not. I'm 'medium Italian' (I ride
everyone's sample size!)

I just recalled that photo as an impressive piece.

And I'm surely not an expert; I often defer to Waterford (or Zinn) for
the tall realm (up to about 65cm I could advise with reasonable experience)

I agree with Chalo, I had a similar experience. I have also spoken with
a few large people who, after going the custom route, weren't all that
happy. I looked at Zinn's bikes, just a quick perusal convinced me he's
clueless.

Knowledgable guy like you who has already gimmicked right one or more
bikes, surely you can put a bike that works up on a board and take
some points to measure on? -- AJ

whenever yawl stop suking on this asshole let me know the procedure
for setting MTB shifters