Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider chain case,Surly SS & Rohloff gears)

(This article is reprinted from
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/...42349#msg42349 and references to other articles are on that board; the search box is top right.)

FACTORY LUBE/CHAINCASE EXPERIMENT (X8 CHAIN, CHAINGLIDER CHAINCASE, SURLY & ROHLOFF GEARS)

Just to centralize reports on an experiment that are spread over other transmission threads:

I fitted a new KMC X8 chain 2000km ago and decided to dedicate it an experiment to determine how good the factory chain lube is and, beyond that, whether in a close-fitting but not sealed chain case the factory lube is good beyond the 700 miles Sheldon Brown claimed, presumably on information received from a factory rep, that it is good for.

The setup is a Utopia Kranich with a Rohloff hub gearbox. There is thus a "single speed" 16T sprocket of Rohloff manufacture, driven by a KMC X8 chain from a Surly stainless steel 38T chainring. The chain runs in a well-fitted long Rohloff-specific Hebie Chainglider.

Elsewhere on this board are several threads in which I describe my chaincase experiments; they conclude that I can recommend without reservation only Hebie's Chainglider.

You may argue that I don't need the X8, which is built to survive the flexing of derailleur chains, that I could make do with the cheaper single-speed Z8, but in fact I can buy the X8 cheaper than the Z8, so I take the superior chain. I doubt it makes much difference to the experiment or to the overall cost for a private buyer; at a manufacturing scale it could make an accounting difference.

The previous KMC X8 lasted 4605km before being replaced due to wear. It was used with a steel Amar crankset, which showed just about zero wear but was replaced by the Surly stainless item because the Surly went better with my new, smart cranks. Cheaper chains, sprockets and ali chainrings lasted around a third as far (on different, more overtly sporting bikes), so I conclude, by comparison with the tales here of awesome distances on a single chain, that I'm heavy on transmission.

***

I've reported earlier at a few hundred miles that the factory lube seemed good, and there was no visible or measurable wear on the chain.

***

There was very occasional skipping at gear changes from the fitting of the new crankset forward but I had quite serious medical problems that prevented me bending over the bike, so it wasn't until a few months ago that I tightened a chain that was set too slack by moving the rear axle back in the sliders (this particular bike doesn't have an eccentric bottom bracket, like a Thorn, it has long rear-facing slots, like a track bike, in which the Rohloff-designed axle hangers slide). This might have caused a spot of extraordinary wear but, again, nothing visible.

***

JULY 2013 at 2000km

The chain has now travelled precisely 2000km (near enough 1200m). I opened it up when I cleaned the bike, and closed it again. There is no visible wear on the chain, the factory lube seems good with no metallic filings in it, and no odd shiny bits on the chain. The sprocket, which has done a total of about 6500km doesn't seem worn either. The chainring seems unmarked, but then you would expect that as stainless steel is just running in at a couple of thousand klicks. I didn't see that it was worth measuring as there clearly is no chain wear that a crude instrument like the normal chain-"stretch" gauge can measure. No action, chaincase closed up again. I'll check it again in at 500km intervals.

***

While the interest here seems to be in the chain lube and chain, just a gentle reminder: The experiment isn't really about the chain lube, or the chain, both of which are the cheapest components under discussion. (KMC X8 chain about 14 euro landed, Oil of Rohloff chain lube about 5 euro a bottle, and it lasts years as you use only a couple of drops inside a chaincase, and rarely at that.)

The experiment is about a maintenance-free bike, and about cleanliness. A chain without added oil is less likely to spread filth everywhere, I thought, and so it has proved. What is visible of my chainring inside the Chainglider no longer spreads oil to my trouser bottoms, and when I wiped it for the first time in months just now to see if there is anything worth reporting, it hardly made the kitchen roll I used grey.

On my bike the gear change click box (supposed to be serviced at 500km intervals -- my views on this, and an experiment to discover how long the service interval can intelligently be, are elsewhere on this board) and the chain are the last items requiring regular service, except for the gearbox oil change, and who will begrudge Herr Rohloff less than an hour a year to keep his marvelous box running.

In that sense, with the chain already outlasting my earlier, only slightly cheaper chains (at delivered price) without any service being required, the experiment is already a success for someone who is used to getting under 2000km out of a chain. If the factory lube in combination with the Hebie Chainglider will carry the chain to the same distance of 4605km as the previous KMC X8 chain without causing undue wear to the expensive sprocket and chainring, the experiment will point to a major advance for hub gear bikes.

****

Further reports follow as usage mounts.

Andre Jute

You understand claims of 1000 miles with the same lube, Rohloff, Dupont...land in the science fiction folder ?

Your setup isnot an oil bath but an open system NOT supplying extra lube as the originally placed lube throws off, oxidizes, dilutes with dirt, as your lube is placed grease not fluid oil from a reservoir.

Road conditions are imprtant. Jute rides in Ireland ? Or Brittany ? Frequent rains washing road surfaces over a clay united soil would greatly increase chain life IF not ridden in rain or thru puddles.

I will try a Hebie Glider on your recommendation tho I strenuously object to the anti semitic nature of it.

DOWNWIND !

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:53:09 PM UTC-4, datakoll wrote:
You understand claims of 1000 miles with the same lube, Rohloff, Dupont...land in the science fiction folder ?



Your setup isnot an oil bath but an open system NOT supplying extra lube as the originally placed lube throws off, oxidizes, dilutes with dirt, as your lube is placed grease not fluid oil from a reservoir.



Road conditions are imprtant. Jute rides in Ireland ? Or Brittany ? Frequent rains washing road surfaces over a clay united soil would greatly increase chain life IF not ridden in rain or thru puddles.



I will try a Hebie Glider on your recommendation tho I strenuously object to the anti semitic nature of it.



DOWNWIND !

.............

Venezuela ?

On Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:53:09 AM UTC+1, datakoll wrote:
You understand claims of 1000 miles with the same lube, Rohloff, Dupont....land in the science fiction folder ?

Better than a 1000 miles already (2000km is around 1240 miles). I don't care **** whether some ignoramus believes me or not. I provide information for those who want it.

Your setup isnot an oil bath but an open system NOT supplying extra lube as the originally placed lube throws off, oxidizes, dilutes with dirt, as your lube is placed grease not fluid oil from a reservoir.

There is, as far as I know, no oil bath system for running bicycle chains in. Every single chaincase known to me is a) dry and b) has holes somewhere. The holes in two, the Hebie Chainglider and the Utopia Country chain case, are smaller than in the common Dutch plastic chaincases. On the Thorn forum there are several articles by me describing my experiences with the Dutch chaincases, the Utopia Country, and the Hebie Chainglider; use the search function.

I'm not interested in systems that feed oil to the chain. My entire experiment is aimed at elimination the need to add oil to the chain. In that my experiment is already a success because, before I got the Utopia which had a KMC chain fitted as standard, my cheap chains lasted less mileage than I've already ridden this chain solely on its factory lube.

Furthermore, there's a hole in the Chainglider into which you put the nipple of the bottle of Oil of Rohloff, squirt in a couple of drops, and let the chain carry it around to the gears. Twice a year, 30 seconds each time. Hardly onerous. Still, if I can get rid of that necessity, the bike moves another step towards being maintenence-free.

Road conditions are imprtant. Jute rides in Ireland ? Or Brittany ? Frequent rains washing road surfaces over a clay united soil would greatly increase chain life IF not ridden in rain or thru puddles.

I ride in Ireland on small lanes in the countryside. Though very small, they're rarely dirt. It rains often. My bike is cleaned once or twice a year, or at least every second year, at which time a thin layer of dust is washed off and the spokes and rims are wiped, sometimes even with a damp cloth, but usually just with kitchen towel.

Read the reports on the Thorn forum, where I mention that my Chainglider is clean inside, meaning no oil on the inside surfaces, nor dust either. In fact, I found on the Dutch plastic chaincases that dead bugs were more likely to be a nuisance than grit, but the openings on the Chainclider appear too small for the bugs to want to fly in.

I will try a Hebie Glider on your recommendation tho I strenuously object to the anti semitic nature of it.

The Chainglider is suitable only for single-speed and hub gearbox bikes. Make sure you get the right rear end for your setup, and the right length of front end (long for long wheelbase bikes, standard for normal wheelbases).

Andre Jute

aha ! last I looked for Chainglider, the unit cpvered on;ly the top of chain.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....iLcqEyDWlP g

Hebie's working on a replaceable flex segment ?

How long does your Hebie last ?

where's current wear n how deep ?

On Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:39:52 AM UTC-4, datakoll wrote:
aha ! last I looked for Chainglider, the unit cpvered on;ly the top of chain.



https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....iLcqEyDWlP g



Hebie's working on a replaceable flex segment ?



How long does your Hebie last ?



where's current wear n how deep ?

http://www.universalcycles.com/searc...ie+chainglider

hub plus Glider....a pricey upgrade.

if the Glider wears out when ? then ura indentured to Hebie

versus cost of a new chain plus valvo synth trans oil...

factory lube is for shipping not riding IMHO

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...w=1152&bih=613

On Thursday, 11 July 2013 13:39:56 UTC+1, datakoll wrote:
hub plus Glider....a pricey upgrade.



if the Glider wears out when ? then ura indentured to Hebie



versus cost of a new chain plus valvo synth trans oil...



factory lube is for shipping not riding IMHO


It's the old Sedisport chain he is using and yes, these could run for 1000 miles (if you are lean and 5'4") without adding a drop of oil on a derailleur bike. As I wanted mine to run free and last (and was 5'11") I was lubricating at about 700 or 800 miles onwards. It would not surprise me if the original lubricant would last 2000 - 3000 miles with a straight chainline without showing any chain wear as I don't expect Andre is putting out the same power level I was when I was using that chain. As I've said before, molybdenum disulphide is suitable for long term use with a 3/32" chain on a man's bike where other common lubricants would be failing. Synthetic oil may be used but requires keeping the chain wet. Molybdenum disulphide sticks and stays. I believe there has been some suggestion that the Rohloff oil does have some moly content.

I'm not happy on getting the stuff on my skin, but with a chaincase I would use Molyslip LQG after washing the manufacturers grease out with paraffin oil. Molyslip LQG is normally around 6 to 8 UKpounds, the best online price I've seen with UK delivery is 8.50 As it's useful on gear pullers and ball joint separators it's sometimes found in motor factors, but you should find it or eqivalent at any engineers supplies or drivetrain/bearing supplier. It's an aerosol application that goes on like oil and sets to a grease..

Without a chaincase, drip the engine treatment in to the clean dry chain and run it for a bit with the bike on a trainer. Then dry the surface before adding castor oil.



https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...w=1152&bih=613

On Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:18:23 PM UTC+1, thirty-six wrote:

It's the old Sedisport chain he is using and yes, these could run for 1000 miles (if you are lean and 5'4") without adding a drop of oil on a derailleur bike. As I wanted mine to run free and last (and was 5'11") I was lubricating at about 700 or 800 miles onwards. It would not surprise me if the original lubricant would last 2000 - 3000 miles with a straight chainline without showing any chain wear as I don't expect Andre is putting out the same power level I was when I was using that chain. As I've said before, molybdenum disulphide is suitable for long term use with a 3/32" chain on a man's bike where other common lubricants would be failing. Synthetic oil may be used but requires keeping the chain wet. Molybdenum disulphide sticks and stays. I believe there has been some suggestion that the Rohloff oil does have some moly content.

How did the Sedisport chain become the KMC X8?

Thanks for the flattery, Trevor, but I'm neither five-four nor lean. I'm six feet, and fourteen stone, and I'm a masher known for getting very low mileages out of cheap chains; I thought that was normal. The 4605km out of a KMC X8 inside a chaincase is double the best I've ever managed before.

Are you saying that factory lube is loaded with molybdenum disulphide? That would fit with the observed behaviour of the factory lube. But moly doesn't fit with Oil of Rohloff, which is light weight non-sticky stuff with great motility and covering power.

From the behaviour of the factory lube so far, and its good condition on inspection, I'm wondering if it won't go the full 4605km that the previous chain made when lubed with Oil of Rohloff, also inside the same or a very similar chaincase (Utopia Country). That's close enough to your estimate of 3000 miles.

Glad to see you. I was starting to wonder if you'd run away with a rich widow.

Andre Jute

On Thursday, 11 July 2013 21:46:23 UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:18:23 PM UTC+1, thirty-six wrote:



It's the old Sedisport chain he is using and yes, these could run for 1000 miles (if you are lean and 5'4") without adding a drop of oil on a derailleur bike. As I wanted mine to run free and last (and was 5'11") I was lubricating at about 700 or 800 miles onwards. It would not surprise me if the original lubricant would last 2000 - 3000 miles with a straight chainline without showing any chain wear as I don't expect Andre is putting out the same power level I was when I was using that chain. As I've said before, molybdenum disulphide is suitable for long term use with a 3/32" chain on a man's bike where other common lubricants would be failing. Synthetic oil may be used but requires keeping the chain wet. Molybdenum disulphide sticks and stays. I believe there has been some suggestion that the Rohloff oil does have some moly content.



How did the Sedisport chain become the KMC X8?



beats me, and it was daylight hours.




Thanks for the flattery, Trevor, but I'm neither five-four nor lean. I'm six feet, and fourteen stone, and I'm a masher known for getting very low mileages out of cheap chains; I thought that was normal. The 4605km out of a KMC X8 inside a chaincase is double the best I've ever managed before.



Are you saying that factory lube is loaded with molybdenum disulphide? That

No I wasn't, and it probably isn't.

would fit with the observed behaviour of the factory lube. But moly doesn't fit with Oil of Rohloff, which is light weight non-sticky stuff with great motility and covering power.

Their psuedo-techno-babble seems to indicate it has additives with at least similar pressure capacity of noly, but I would have to check the numbers.



From the behaviour of the factory lube so far, and its good condition on inspection, I'm wondering if it won't go the full 4605km that the previous chain made when lubed with Oil of Rohloff, also inside the same or a very similar chaincase (Utopia Country). That's close enough to your estimate of 3000 miles.



Glad to see you. I was starting to wonder if you'd run away with a rich widow.


That's an option I have yet to show serious consideration. I believe it is unlikely but not impossible.