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On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:05:28 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 18:39:38 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:17:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:12:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
O
Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for
careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks.
Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find
a cross walk.


Phoenix? Right that was AI Automobile's first victim if I recall.


No, they were regularly killing people off here in California long
before that Phoenix pedestrian.

Oh? Got a link or three? "Regularly" implies more than a couple deaths.

I stopped looking for another job. I really don't need the money and
they are acting like they are doing me a favor to offer me a job. I'm
a problem solver and if they want someone to kiss their ass for a job
they can find plenty of college graduates that can't do it correctly.

Sorry about your failure to find work.

- Frank Krygowski

One can only speculate? Does attending collage somehow disqualify one
from doing "things" correctly?

IME, it made you more capable than your supervisor and plenty would get
nervous.

Joy Beeson wrote:

:I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
:down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
:leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
:the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
:waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
:divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

It's probably planning. That's called a 'pedestrian island' and is
intended to make it safer to cross, becasue you can cross each side
seperately, as you describe. They're sometimes used to control
vehicle traffic, as well, to keep cars from driving on the wrong side
of the road (to reach a left turn lane at a light that's backed up,
for instance.). Another similar feature extends the side walk into
the curbside lane, which reduces the distance the pedestrian is in
the street.



--
sig 115

On Tuesday, 10 December 2019 23:03:39 UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

In the areas I'm talking about it was pretty easy to cross the road mid-block during rush hour. Once the light at the end of the block turned red you'd shortly thereafter get a big break in traffic and you could cross then. Even when one of the intersections became a roundabout the opposite intersection still had traffic lights and pedestrians could still cross easily during rush hour. Now with a roundabout at both locations it's nearly impossible to get a break in traffic during rush hour and thus it's not safe for a pedestrian or bicyclist to try to cross to the center divider during rush hour any more.

Cheers

On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 11:45:10 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I detest those bulb-outs. 1, they stop through traffic whenever some driver wants to make a left hand turn. I see traffic on our main street often backed up for over a block because ONE car is waiting to make a left hand turn off that main street and all the other cars that want to continue past that car can no longer do so because of the bulb-out.

Those concrete divider islands I referenced are the ENTIRE length of the road between roundabouts which means everyone has to drive to the next roundabout in order to turn to drive to a plaza or side street directly across from where they were or wanted to turn left from. What's worse is that in rush hour there's a steady stream of unbroken motor vehicle traffic now whereas before the traffic lights caused breaks in that traffic flow. Crossing those streets now is far more dangerous for both pedestrians and bicyclists now than it was before. Plus, during rush hour the traffic at the roundabouts is often at a standstill as drivers have to wait to enter the roundabout. It's a mess and most drivers here hate them too.

Cheers

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

Or you end up with our latest and not-so-greatest facility that funnels cyclists around a lot of raised concrete island. https://bikeportland.org/2018/06/27/...is-fall-284848 I couldn't find a photo online because it's too new, but the reality is even worse than the drawing. The angles and widths are more acute than suggested in the drawing -- its a narrow bicycle chicane. I got to that intersection last weekend and said "f*** that, I'm going straight." Cars now you have to cope with more hardscape and cyclists like me who see no value in doing the hula around a bunch of islands. The intersection is now more dangerous and less convenient for everyone.

And, to add insult to injury, they are reconfiguring an intersection on my way to work to add an off street bicycle facility that will inevitably be considered mandatory by motorists and that will tangle traffic for bikes and cars. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Projects...Portland_2.jpg

It's hard to tell what's going on there, but from street level: https://tinyurl.com/sam4mma My protocol for the last 30 years has been to get over two traffic lanes to the left and then go straight. The City is now putting in this long, raised and separate bicycle chute that stops at a cross walk where cars are supposed to stop but won't. When cars do stop at that crosswalk in heavy morning traffic, it causes cars to back-up, which makes getting over harder. You get mouse-trapped against the far right edge of the road by a wall of traffic. Anyway, "f*** that." I'm taking the road and will have to cope with drivers who now think I'm obligated to go stand at a cross-walk. The option of standing at a cross-walk was always there for the timid. I see no reason to make the facility more grand. It's a waste of concrete.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/11/2019 11:01 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 11:45:10 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I detest those bulb-outs. 1, they stop through traffic whenever some driver wants to make a left hand turn. I see traffic on our main street often backed up for over a block because ONE car is waiting to make a left hand turn off that main street and all the other cars that want to continue past that car can no longer do so because of the bulb-out.

Those concrete divider islands I referenced are the ENTIRE length of the road between roundabouts which means everyone has to drive to the next roundabout in order to turn to drive to a plaza or side street directly across from where they were or wanted to turn left from. What's worse is that in rush hour there's a steady stream of unbroken motor vehicle traffic now whereas before the traffic lights caused breaks in that traffic flow. Crossing those streets now is far more dangerous for both pedestrians and bicyclists now than it was before. Plus, during rush hour the traffic at the roundabouts is often at a standstill as drivers have to wait to enter the roundabout. It's a mess and most drivers here hate them too.

Cheers


+1
Well done, Sir.
I could not have encapsulated The Planners' failings better.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel.. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

Or you end up with our latest and not-so-greatest facility that funnels cyclists around a lot of raised concrete island. https://bikeportland.org/2018/06/27/...is-fall-284848 I couldn't find a photo online because it's too new, but the reality is even worse than the drawing. The angles and widths are more acute than suggested in the drawing -- its a narrow bicycle chicane. I got to that intersection last weekend and said "f*** that, I'm going straight." Cars now you have to cope with more hardscape and cyclists like me who see no value in doing the hula around a bunch of islands. The intersection is now more dangerous and less convenient for everyone.

And, to add insult to injury, they are reconfiguring an intersection on my way to work to add an off street bicycle facility that will inevitably be considered mandatory by motorists and that will tangle traffic for bikes and cars. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Projects...Portland_2.jpg

It's hard to tell what's going on there, but from street level: https://tinyurl.com/sam4mma My protocol for the last 30 years has been to get over two traffic lanes to the left and then go straight. The City is now putting in this long, raised and separate bicycle chute that stops at a cross walk where cars are supposed to stop but won't. When cars do stop at that crosswalk in heavy morning traffic, it causes cars to back-up, which makes getting over harder. You get mouse-trapped against the far right edge of the road by a wall of traffic. Anyway, "f*** that." I'm taking the road and will have to cope with drivers who now think I'm obligated to go stand at a cross-walk. The option of standing at a cross-walk was always there for the timid. I see no reason to make the facility more grand. It's a waste of concrete.

-- Jay Beattie.

Aren't there any traffic lights at that Burnside intersection now?

Cheers

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 12:14:33 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

Or you end up with our latest and not-so-greatest facility that funnels cyclists around a lot of raised concrete island. https://bikeportland.org/2018/06/27/...is-fall-284848 I couldn't find a photo online because it's too new, but the reality is even worse than the drawing. The angles and widths are more acute than suggested in the drawing -- its a narrow bicycle chicane. I got to that intersection last weekend and said "f*** that, I'm going straight." Cars now you have to cope with more hardscape and cyclists like me who see no value in doing the hula around a bunch of islands. The intersection is now more dangerous and less convenient for everyone.

And, to add insult to injury, they are reconfiguring an intersection on my way to work to add an off street bicycle facility that will inevitably be considered mandatory by motorists and that will tangle traffic for bikes and cars. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Projects...Portland_2.jpg

It's hard to tell what's going on there, but from street level: https://tinyurl.com/sam4mma My protocol for the last 30 years has been to get over two traffic lanes to the left and then go straight. The City is now putting in this long, raised and separate bicycle chute that stops at a cross walk where cars are supposed to stop but won't. When cars do stop at that crosswalk in heavy morning traffic, it causes cars to back-up, which makes getting over harder. You get mouse-trapped against the far right edge of the road by a wall of traffic. Anyway, "f*** that." I'm taking the road and will have to cope with drivers who now think I'm obligated to go stand at a cross-walk. The option of standing at a cross-walk was always there for the timid. I see no reason to make the facility more grand. It's a waste of concrete.

-- Jay Beattie.

Aren't there any traffic lights at that Burnside intersection now?

Yes, it always had lights. It was a very straight-forward intersection. I don't know why the City felt the need to put in a bike lane that snakes through pedestrian traffic. I love the comments at the Bike Portland site. The consensus is that the City has created an obstacle course -- but what else is new.

-- Jay Beattie.