Belt drive

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 11:10:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 1:10:20 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 2:26:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or
running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except
once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue..


I've been on two rides where bicycle chains broke. One was mine. Hit a small bump/curb on the trail when crossing a street and the chain jumped off its cogs/pulleys/rings and got lodged somehow and it broke when I started pedaling again. Used the chain tool to remove the broken link and put in one of the quick links to reconnect everything. Other time was on a group ride and one of the riders broke his chain. I used my chain tool to remove the broken link and gave him my quick link to put everything back together. Took a few minutes on the side of the road to get everything working again. But it was all resolved successfully. So people who think chains don't break on rides are living in some make believe fantasy land.

I broke one on a mountain bike ride when I missed a sudden shift to the granny.
My wife cracked one quick link a couple years ago. I remember one club ride
where someone broke a chain.

So I can't say chains don't break. But I can say that those are the only
incidents I remember since 1972, when I started adult riding. That includes
many hundreds of club rides with anywhere from three to a couple dozen people.
That includes my decades of running, then sagging a fair-sized century ride.
(We had up to 600 riders.)

So I'm talking about 3 chains in hundreds of thousands of rider miles, I'm sure. It's not a common event.

- Frank Krygowski

I had a really weird mishap with my original Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle back in the 1980s. I was sprinting along a busy road in Toronto Canada and hit a short piece of metal rod. I hit the rod on the end and it flipped up, struck my chain and drove the rivet part way out so that it woudldn't clear the front derailleur. I did not have a chain breaker that day but I was still able to ride the bicycle the few remaining miles home by pushing down on the one pedal and then back pedaling enough to pedal forward again = like a push then pull system.

Now the multi-tools re so small that you don't need to carry a spare chain breaker as that tool is part of the multi-tool. Indeed, if one is concerned to shave the last few grams from such a tool then they can remove any of the tools they don't need/want.

That reminded me of one other broken chain story. I wasn't there, at the time.
But our family was biking out to a state park for camping, and were meeting
another bicycling family - actually, the guy owned a bike shop.

They arrived a bit behind schedule. He was towing his younger daughter in a
trailer. He said that first, he stopped because he found a pair of vise grips
in the road. A while after that, his chain partially separated at a link. (I
don't know if he missed a front shift or what.) Anyway, he was quite pleased
because he was able to use the newly found vise grips to get the chain back
together.

So I guess that's four incidents I've encountered in 48 years of my adult
riding. (I'll count that one because we were sort of on the same ride.)

- Frank Krygowski

I picked up a quarter on a ride and was able to use it to take the battery cover off of the Speedo to replace the battery.....

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:10:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 2:26:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or
running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except
once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue.


I've been on two rides where bicycle chains broke. One was mine. Hit a small bump/curb on the trail when crossing a street and the chain jumped off its cogs/pulleys/rings and got lodged somehow and it broke when I started pedaling again. Used the chain tool to remove the broken link and put in one of the quick links to reconnect everything. Other time was on a group ride and one of the riders broke his chain. I used my chain tool to remove the broken link and gave him my quick link to put everything back together. Took a few minutes on the side of the road to get everything working again. But it was all resolved successfully. So people who think chains don't break on rides are living in some make believe fantasy land.

I broke one on a mountain bike ride when I missed a sudden shift to the granny.
My wife cracked one quick link a couple years ago. I remember one club ride
where someone broke a chain.

So I can't say chains don't break. But I can say that those are the only
incidents I remember since 1972, when I started adult riding. That includes
many hundreds of club rides with anywhere from three to a couple dozen people.
That includes my decades of running, then sagging a fair-sized century ride.
(We had up to 600 riders.)

So I'm talking about 3 chains in hundreds of thousands of rider miles, I'm sure. It's not a common event.

- Frank Krygowski

I had a really weird mishap with my original Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle back in the 1980s. I was sprinting along a busy road in Toronto Canada and hit a short piece of metal rod. I hit the rod on the end and it flipped up, struck my chain and drove the rivet part way out so that it woudldn't clear the front derailleur. I did not have a chain breaker that day but I was still able to ride the bicycle the few remaining miles home by pushing down on the one pedal and then back pedaling enough to pedal forward again = like a push then pull system.

Had you been riding out in the wilderness you might have found a bent
nail and a rock and than you could have fixed your chain and ridden
home :-)


Now the multi-tools re so small that you don't need to carry a spare chain breaker as that tool is part of the multi-tool. Indeed, if one is concerned to shave the last few grams from such a tool then they can remove any of the tools they don't need/want.

Cheers
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and
contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two
flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.


I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear
to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one
of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi
by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed
prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable
to me.


As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai
made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super
Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either.


Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product.

No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by
using less than quality materials.

I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.

https://www.amazon.com/egg-beaters/s?k=egg+beaters
KitchenAid KHM7210ER 7-Speed Digital Hand Mixer with Turbo Beater II
Pro Whisk - Empire Red 4.3 out of 5 stars $54.95
https://www.amazon.com/bike-tires/b?node=340498
Continental Gatorskin Bike Tire - DuraSkin Puncture & Sidewall
Protection, (23c, 25c, 28c, 32c), from $29.97
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and
contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two
flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.


I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear
to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one
of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi
by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed
prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable
to me.


As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai
made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super
Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either.


Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product.

No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by
using less than quality materials.

I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.


How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car
every 2500mi?

Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2019-04-29 10:13, wrote:
On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 7:46:37 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4,
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the
bike he is building. What is good about them?
You have to have the exact length for your
bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated,
they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t
seem to have been cracked, I think generally the
extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate
that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most
of all BMW. That company should also build MTB,
they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always
matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We
just want less wear and most importanly not have to
clean and lube the chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer
to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty
rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered
lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all
myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG



It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks
down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the
commute as I clock up fairly respectable
distances per day which does chew though the
drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls





--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of
El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your
world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I
keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the
durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small
gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to
pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to
you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather
ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary
but in contrast to others they generally arrive at
their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't
arrive on time were when I assisted others during
repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes
et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and
I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came
loose so I couldn't ride, in 20 years or more. In fact,
in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my
bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a
flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof
it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had
a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back
in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools.
Fix it with your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it
can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips
for a while.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I so not believe one in a hundred people could mount a Gatorskin.


The dealer who sold me the first set wished me "Have fun mounting them".
He knew.


... But
I'm pretty much sold on tubeless now and they can usually be mounted
by hand. And you don't have to dismount them anywhere but to replace
them after they're worn out.


People in my area had different experience. All it takes is some goat's
head thorns and ... phhhseeeooouuu. Green slime can hang on if it's not
too many but usually there are many. I've had to loan my MTB tube to
people with tubeless. Surprisingly it got them home even though it was a
29" tube in a 26" wheel.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 6:08:21 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:46:22 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 12:24:19 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed?

My tool kit weighs 68 grammes. With it I can do everything on the bike that doesn't require a large specialist tool. Never been called on with my current bike, which celebrated it's tenth birthday this year.

Back home each of my bikes has full toolkit of its own, kept near it in a wheeled aluminium pilot's case. I open the relevant case once a year when the bike is serviced.

Bike frames and components are much superior today to what they were a generation ago, say in 1990, or perhaps it is just that I've been buying better bikes over time, with more knowledge and experience of what to look for and specify.

Andre Jute
Who's a curmudgeon, then?

I keep wondering what in the hell you people are doing. I have one or two innertubes, the plastic tire irons, the CO2 inflators with two cylinders and a multitool in a pack and have weighed THREE of them and they are all 2 lbs.

My bike is specifically designed to be maintenance free. There's just nothing on it likely to break on the road, requiring tools. When I get a flat (two sets of snakebites in 10 years from storming through potholes on low inflations), I call my driver and he takes the bike home to where I can work in comfort on the stand. Every bolt in a threaded tab is Loctited, every nut is Nyloc, every replaceable part is replaced at 2/3 normal wear and until then protected from the elements (actually to stop it putting oil on my hands or clothes, but the by-effect is protection against the elements). What isn't protected is stainless or plain polished ali. Every permanent part really is permanent, the best by provenance, tested to destruction or more likely frustration at failure to destroy it, sealed for life, not compromised by weight-weenyism. There is just nothing to break or even likely to go out of adjustment; the brakes are sealed for life rim hydraulics and I'm just contemplating if after 10K I shouldn't fit new blocks regardless of their little wear. The tool is mainly for adjustments on pedalpals' bikes. When I bought it, it was a German bike from the top of the tree with a rock solid reputation as the most reliable touring bike in the world (it comes with a ten year guarantee and a 170kg load rating), and I've been developing it relentlessly, one component at a time. You can't build a toolproof bike like this if you start with a racer-mentality or a weight-weenie paradigm, so I suppose the difference between our toolkits has its origins in a difference of outlook on cycling, of where we start from. Also, I started cycling late in life, so I wasn't imbued at an impressionable age with all that cycling masochism.

What amazes me is not that my toolkit weighs less than yours -- how could it be otherwise, considering the different purposes of the bikes? -- but the claims of others with the same lightweight components as you to having so much lighter toolkits.

Andre Jute
I was never into gutless little English sports cars either, and the less said about their Italian cousins the better

On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 12:35:24 AM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and
contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two
flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.


I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear
to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one
of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi
by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed
prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable
to me.


As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai
made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super
Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either..


Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product.

No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by
using less than quality materials.

I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.


How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car
every 2500mi?

Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I dunno what you're doing, Joerg, but you're doing it wrong. Compare this to your expensive misfortunes with supposedly "cheap" tyres:

1. Schwalbe 622x60 Big Apples, pair, plus T19A Ultraleigt tubes, pair, total delivered to my door Euro 66
-- half-worn at 8500km/5300m

Andre Jute
The best is always in the end the cheap option

On 4/29/2019 7:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the
exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very
expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they
have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's
done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders.
We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and
lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS
MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had
to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down
anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute
as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls




--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El
Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure
does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best
bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small
gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After
all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a
bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to
others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive
on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they
didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I
haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't
ride,* in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even
remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat
tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it
out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools.* Fix it with
your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it
can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a
while.

I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and
contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two
flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.


I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear
to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one
of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi
by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed
prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable
to me.


As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai
made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super
Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either.


Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product.

No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by
using less than quality materials.

I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all* made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.


How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car
every 2500mi?

Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

What percentage of your annual income do you spend on tires?

What percentage would you spend if you used those oh-so-expensive
Gatorskins?

I have them on our tandem. I can still afford lunch. You're doing
something wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/29/2019 1:08 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:46:22 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 12:24:19 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed?

My tool kit weighs 68 grammes. With it I can do everything on the bike that doesn't require a large specialist tool. Never been called on with my current bike, which celebrated it's tenth birthday this year.

Back home each of my bikes has full toolkit of its own, kept near it in a wheeled aluminium pilot's case. I open the relevant case once a year when the bike is serviced.

Bike frames and components are much superior today to what they were a generation ago, say in 1990, or perhaps it is just that I've been buying better bikes over time, with more knowledge and experience of what to look for and specify.

Andre Jute
Who's a curmudgeon, then?

I keep wondering what in the hell you people are doing. I have one or two innertubes, the plastic tire irons, the CO2 inflators with two cylinders and a multitool in a pack and have weighed THREE of them and they are all 2 lbs.

I wonder if your scale is out of calibration.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:35:23 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and
contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two
flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.


I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear
to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one
of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi
by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed
prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable
to me.


As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai
made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super
Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either.


Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product.

No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by
using less than quality materials.

I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.


How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car
every 2500mi?

Well, I use to change tires more frequently then that. Back when I was
a high school kid working in the filling station after school. The
owner used to give me any tire that the re-capping place refused so I
drove on tires with the cords showing. Carried a whole caboose full of
tires and got so a wheel change was a 10 minute job.


Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

70,000 miles at $280? that is what? Less than one cent a mile? and you
can't afford it?

2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

What sort of a job do you have that you can't afford $45/2500 = 1.8
cents a mile for tires?

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

Sure I can do the math and in my money 45 dollars is 1,440 baht. Which
is literally pocket change. It won't even cover a trip to the grocery
store. And you are whining about that?
--
cheers,

John B.