I am that out of date

On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.


Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

E.g. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-kit-procedure I guess this is a good reason for not buying cheap Chinese Keo knock-offs, assuming they mis-cut the threads. Its hard to imagine how that might have happened to only part of the threads, though.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 1:05:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding..
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned..

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

E.g. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-kit-procedure I guess this is a good reason for not buying cheap Chinese Keo knock-offs, assuming they mis-cut the threads. Its hard to imagine how that might have happened to only part of the threads, though.

I'm not really sure that Park Tool setup is good for cranks. It doesn't correct for misalignments that could occur. After seeing the rather substantial effect of a 2.5 crank length makes, I'd worry about misalignment, wouldn't you?

On 4/27/2021 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 1:05:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

E.g. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-kit-procedure I guess this is a good reason for not buying cheap Chinese Keo knock-offs, assuming they mis-cut the threads. Its hard to imagine how that might have happened to only part of the threads, though.

I'm not really sure that Park Tool setup is good for cranks. It doesn't correct for misalignments that could occur. After seeing the rather substantial effect of a 2.5 crank length makes, I'd worry about misalignment, wouldn't you?


Oh, probably not. Both the German and British taps have a
very long taper for a pilot. Only a complete idiot could
botch it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:22:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/27/2021 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 1:05:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

E.g. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-kit-procedure I guess this is a good reason for not buying cheap Chinese Keo knock-offs, assuming they mis-cut the threads. Its hard to imagine how that might have happened to only part of the threads, though.

I'm not really sure that Park Tool setup is good for cranks. It doesn't correct for misalignments that could occur. After seeing the rather substantial effect of a 2.5 crank length makes, I'd worry about misalignment, wouldn't you?


Oh, probably not. Both the German and British taps have a
very long taper for a pilot. Only a complete idiot could
botch it.

Quite the contrary, at least when hand tapping it is quite easy to
start the tap at a bit of an angle and tap the hole "crooked". Been
there, done that.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 05:49:32 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Quite the contrary, at least when hand tapping it is quite easy to
start the tap at a bit of an angle and tap the hole "crooked". Been
there, done that.

Agreed. If I want it perfect, I use a lathe or drill press to keep
the tap aligned.

"Tapping a Straight Hole With the Aid of a Drill Press"
https://www.instructables.com/tapping-a-straight-hole-with-the-aid-of-a-drill-pr/
Note that the drill press is used for alignment, not for power
tapping. Unplug the drill press so that you're not tempted.

The hard part is finding 5/8-24 bolts or rod ends in both LH (left
hand) and RH (right hand) threading. A tapered quill from an old
pedal might work. If you can't find anything, turn down a 5/8" wooden
or plastic rod so that it barely clears the threads and cram into the
hole in the crank arm. Or, use a pedal quill and make at many
measurements as needed to confirm that it's perpendicular.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Was the pedal with the problem on the left or right? If it was the
left, continue reading:
https://bicyclingage.substack.com/p/6-pedal-installation-a-cautionary
"If my brother had tightened his pedals more, or if the pedals had had
washers and the threads had had clean grease for installation, this
disaster would have been averted."

See the 2nd article and others on pedals by Jobst Brandt at:
https://yarchive.net/bike/cranks.html

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 3:22:20 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 1:05:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove..

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0..55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

E.g. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-kit-procedure I guess this is a good reason for not buying cheap Chinese Keo knock-offs, assuming they mis-cut the threads. Its hard to imagine how that might have happened to only part of the threads, though.

I'm not really sure that Park Tool setup is good for cranks. It doesn't correct for misalignments that could occur. After seeing the rather substantial effect of a 2.5 crank length makes, I'd worry about misalignment, wouldn't you?

Oh, probably not. Both the German and British taps have a
very long taper for a pilot. Only a complete idiot could
botch it.
I suppose you're right. It just would make me nervous seeing that the end threads are perfectly clean and if the pedal had unscrewed part way, but I know that it didn't because I looked at it. If not really tight it was in at least all the way. With threads there and a slight displacement of the threads that tore out, I would think that it could go in a little crooked and that is precisely where you need exact alignment.

On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 3:49:42 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:22:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/27/2021 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 1:05:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2021 8:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 7:09:38 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:20:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 9:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 3:57:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 1:06:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE
improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back
in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club
mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his
individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding.
They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe
clips.

There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and
US football kicker. They are outliers.

One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from
people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough.. So he reverted
to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with
training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat
pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.

Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless
for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in
or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them.

Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and
put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in,
plus shoes with soft tacky tread.

In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to
reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy.

I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously
steep climbs etc.

I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but
proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my
experience.

Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove.

Roger Merriman
Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals.
Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank?
I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top.
Or you under-tightened the pedal, which is the most probable explanation. It's 30-40nm torque -- which is more than "snug," which is IMO about 12-15nm like Shimano crank bolts.
Jay, pedals are English threaded and under force they tighten. I took these pedals and cranks on two hard climbing rides so if they weren't tight enough before they were tight enough after.

I have never had any problems with FSA cranks and Look pedals. Looking at the threads on the Rock Bros Keo substitute you can see that the threads are not badly made but I'm willing to admit that rather than the pedal it might just as well have been the material of the crank. I just measured the threaded area OD on the Rock Bros pedals and it is pretty regular 0.55" which is .0125 smaller than the 9/16 but it is the same measurement as Look pedals measured in the same manner.

Did you tighten the pedals to recommended torque? If not, it backed out because the pedals were under-torqued. If so, then you have bearing binding. The question now is if you have ruined the pedal threads and need to replace the crank.
Can't those be Helicoiled?
Yes, I was being overly-dramatic. Many times you can just screw the pedal back in, although I screw it back in with thread lock and recommended torque because recommended torque alone may not be enough to keep it in.

-- Jay Beattie.
You know, it never even occurred to me to repair it. Yes, a Heli coil is a suitable repair. If you can find someone local that knows how to do it. It is increasingly rare t find skilled workers and it would require at bare minimum a good drill press and a mill would be preferable. But with a new FSA Gossamer crank running $50 it isn't worth it. I will just chuck the Rock Bros pedals and be done with them. I will consider it a lesson learned.

It looks like I didn't write what actually happened. Taking careful measurements of the Rock Bros pedals, the end of the shaft had perfectly good threads but the inside near the base of the threads was a full mm smaller in diameter. This allowed the pedal to rock back and forth and work the threads out. Rock Bros has offered to replace them but it costs more to return them than I have in them.

Guys do a similar size thread Helicoil or ReCoil or
ThredSert in aluminum heads for spark plugs right /in situ/
so I can't imagine a bicycle crank would be any different in
terms of tapping.

That said, the industry standard is a full steel sleeve not
a coil and there's probably no good reason not to do it that
way.

E.g. https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-kit-procedure I guess this is a good reason for not buying cheap Chinese Keo knock-offs, assuming they mis-cut the threads. Its hard to imagine how that might have happened to only part of the threads, though.

I'm not really sure that Park Tool setup is good for cranks. It doesn't correct for misalignments that could occur. After seeing the rather substantial effect of a 2.5 crank length makes, I'd worry about misalignment, wouldn't you?


Oh, probably not. Both the German and British taps have a
very long taper for a pilot. Only a complete idiot could
botch it.
Quite the contrary, at least when hand tapping it is quite easy to
start the tap at a bit of an angle and tap the hole "crooked". Been
there, done that.
'Well I have as well but that was in steel that you cannot tell precisely what is going on which is why all of that sort of work is done on a mill.