I am that out of date

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 3:12:28 PM UTC-5, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!
O RLY? From 1992 to 1995 I rode my Sparta Cornwall bike to work, every
single working day, around the year.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12a.jpg
Indeed, these are chromed steel rims. Any idea why there wasn't any
problem with that, huh?

Sorry about the picture quality, that picture was taken using an Apple
QickTake camera, in 1995.

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.
Sure. So do lead/acid batteries, for example that gray piece marked
"friwo" in the picture linked below.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/lichtc1.jpg/image_preview


Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html

But somehow, most of this stuff worked good enough to server my well for
many years.
A few expensive parts did not. For example that one:
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/such/DSC04651.jpg. Do you know what it
is?


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.
People still do that nowadays. Bicycles got lighter with alloy
components, rims, frames, handlebar, this made it easier to push.

I cycled to school on a heavy Rabeneick bicycle, using a 3 speed hub
(Fichtel&Sachs Torpedo). Riding home (6%, about 120 m up) wasn't easy.
But pushing that bike would have been even more strenous.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement.
What about better brakes?

What about them? I had a lower cost Schwinn in 1981. It had center pull brakes. They worked just fine. I had a loaded touring bike with cantilever brakes. They worked just fine going down mountains carrying 30 pounds of gear at 60 mph. I've never tried disc brakes. But brakes have always worked just fine for the past hundred years. I'm sure recent improvements are better. But not much better since there wasn't much to improve.



Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.
Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.

Yes. No one is arguing that they were not "improvements". Just the amount of improvement.


The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"
My current custom made road bike, built in in 2010, has Shimano st-6703
Ultegra Dual Control Shifters. I like it. They aren't without fault,
the mechanics are somewhat fragile, changing gear wires is somewhat
difficult, but overall, these offer significant benefits compared to
downtube shifters. I still have my old read bike, a Panasonic PR3000
bought in 1995
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/pict2439.jpg/download and keep
it as a backup and for indoor training, but I prefer to ride the newer
bike. It wasn't that expensive, either, about EUR 1400 (~ $1700) in
2010. One of my sons bought a similar bike less than a year ago for even
less money.


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.




--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 5:46:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
A couple of weeks ago I was approaching an overpass over the local Freeway. There were three cyclists in front of me and I usually make no effort to overtake people like that because I do not want to make people feel inadequate.

Did you honestly just write that? Or did some nefarious soul steal your RBT account and write that for hysterical laughter? The latter is far more believable.

On 2021-04-21, wrote:
snip
I agree that new shifting mechanics such as STI, Ergo, electronic, Rohloff
hub, etc. are nice but not necessary. Bikes with downtube, barend, and
stem shifters all shifted bikes just fine. Even before index became
standard. Friction worked.


My beloved '80's Cannondale is Suntour Winner Pro 6-speed and Rivendell barcon shifter equipped.
The 27" tires (just as God intended) are the bee's knees.

While I have Jobst's wheelbuilding tome I used Robert Wrights "Wright built" tutorial
to build my 40 spoke front and 48 spoke rear Mavic Mod 4 wheels. (I *am* a Clydesdale, after all).

The old stuff works perfectly well and is much loved.

pH in Aptos

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 22:06:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/21/2021 8:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

And Tom talking about thousands of dollars for a used, second hand,
bicycle? Is this a major reduction in the value of the dollar or is it
an indication of how wealthy the average USian has become?
I think it's mostly the latter. Despite some true poverty and despite
certain individuals' whining, prosperity in the U.S. is probably higher
than ever. I was recently talking to a friend about our skills in fixing
things. That's out of fashion. Why bother? Just buy a new one!

I think about my music-loving father. He must have been in his 50s when
he splurged on a stereo radio. I've got six stereo sets sprinkled around
the house. I just spent a few hours today organizing may collection of
hundreds of CDs.

What? CDs? Why don't you listen to 78 LPs? Fashion is a powerful thing.

Hmm. I don't recall ever having an opportunity to buy 78s. I do have a
fairly respectable collection of vinyl albums, though. One household
innovation triggered by COVID was to begin playing one of those during
dinner time.

And speaking of rpm: I remember one evening, playing Vivaldi, I told my
wife "Wow, I don't like this performance. It seems rushed and screechy."
Then I realized the speed control lever had been bumped. I was playing a
33 rpm recording at 45 rpm.

Further BTW: I knew a young couple who, just for fun, bought an antique
hand-crank ... Victrola? Is that what they're called? Amplification only
by an acoustic horn - and with it, a collection of records. I suppose
those were 78s?

That illustrates a benefit of my vinyl. Given a straight pin and a paper
cup, I can get the music out even after the zombie apocalypse.

Yup a Victrola. With the advent of electric power people used to throw
them away :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 18:01:46 -0500 schrieb AMuzi :


"Do you know what it is?"
Roller dynamo, usually mounted behind the crank where they
wear quickly from road grit.

Correct.


Is that a Sanyo or a Union or a Soubitez?

A Sanyo Dynapower. See the comments in

https://pluspora.com/posts/802e8870db0501381ba9005056264835

(Sorry, in German, but there are pictures).

I have an Union roller too, which broke quite quickly, for the same
reason, wear from road grit.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:06:52 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 7:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/21/2021 3:10 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

....

Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html

....

If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...


"Do you know what it is?"
Roller dynamo, usually mounted behind the crank where they wear quickly
from road grit.

Is that a Sanyo or a Union or a Soubitez?

My guess is Sanyo. There's one on one of my wife's bikes now. It's fine
for her occasional use.

Correct, a Sanyo Dynapower. I bought it for the Peugeot PR 60/L shown in
the link above with an Union bottle generator. At that time I used the
Peugeot for commuting during sommer and winter, with various lights. I
tried almost everything, and broke almost everything available at that
time.

I'm retired for more than three years now and mostly don't ride in the
dark anymore. But as a backup and because it's the law, I carry an
b&m Ixon Core in my bag and an Sigma Blaze mounted at the seat post.

https://www.bumm.de/en/products/akku-scheinwerfer/produkt/180l%20.html
https://www.sigmasport.com/en/images/sigma_website/produkte/slider/slider_blaze/slider/01_slider_blaze_black.jpg
--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 10:06:48 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And speaking of rpm: I remember one evening, playing Vivaldi, I told my
wife "Wow, I don't like this performance. It seems rushed and screechy."
Then I realized the speed control lever had been bumped. I was playing a
33 rpm recording at 45 rpm.


Fun at parties - PLay the album version of Beast Of Burden by the Rolling Stones and 45 RPM - Tell everyone it's the Dolly Parton version. And if you're bored, Youtube the Bette Midler performance on the Johnny Carson Show - One of the few times Carson was flummoxed (I saw it the night it aired)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vov5JBTDyBM

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 3:57:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:

Forgot about inflatable tires. I'm not sure how long they have been around but I would guess they are before "modern" cycling. Ford Model T cars in 1908 had pneumatic tires. But if you are considering pneumatic tires as modern, then I guess you have to also consider chains as modern. Before chain driven bicycles, you had high wheel bikes where you directly powered the bike, no gearing reduction/amplification. And if you want to go back a bit further, then pedals are a big improvement. Before high wheelers, you had those bikes where you straddled the frame and propelled them by running with your feet and the bike was under your crotch. Go back a whole lot further and you get the round wheel as a big advancement.

There's this thing called the internet?
GIYF.
Pnuematic tires were invented specifically for bicycles. from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire#History

"The first practical pneumatic tire was made in 1888 on May Street, Belfast, by Scots-born John Boyd Dunlop, owner of one of Ireland's most prosperous veterinary practices. It was an effort to prevent the headaches of his 10-year-old son Johnnie, while riding his tricycle on rough pavements. His doctor, John, later Sir John Fagan, had prescribed cycling as an exercise for the boy, and was a regular visitor. Fagan participated in designing the first pneumatic tires. Cyclist Willie Hume demonstrated the supremacy of Dunlop's tires in 1889, winning the tire's first-ever races in Ireland and then England.[8][9] In Dunlop's tire patent specification dated 31 October 1888, his interest is only in its use in cycles and light vehicles."

Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 19:33:09 -0700 (PDT) schrieb
" :

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 3:12:28 PM UTC-5, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

....

What about better brakes?

What about them? I had a lower cost Schwinn in 1981.

I owned and rode that Rabeneick in, well, about 1966. The brakes
sucked. Much later in 1978 I bought an somewhat expensive Peugeot PR
60/L. A very nice bicycle indeed, but the Mafac cantilever brakes
sucked. Replacing those by the long version of the Shimano 105 dual
pivot brakes was like night and day. I used that bike heavily up to 1995
and occasionally up to 2010. In that year one of my sons used for a
tour from Bonn to Essen, about 130 km. The bike was useable, but in
comparison to the other two bikes, its age was quite noticeable.

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/lichtc1.jpg, already shown.


It had
center pull brakes. They worked just fine. I had a loaded
touring bike with cantilever brakes. They worked just fine
going down mountains carrying 30 pounds of gear at 60 mph.

We used our Peugeot bikes in in the eighties in the south of France,
mostly in the flats, but not always. It was doable and we very much
enjoyed it, but riding in the rain left something to be desired. I very
much prefer the dual pivot Ultegra brake on my actual road bike, or the
v-brake on the touring bike.

I've never tried disc brakes.

I didn't either, so far, because I dont't have a need for these and
prefer the easier handling of classic rim brakes.


But brakes have always worked
just fine for the past hundred years. I'm sure recent
improvements are better. But not much better since there
wasn't much to improve.

Well, this is why I don't really like these ****ing contests wrt.
innovations. Sometimes, progress comes in tiny steps, almost invisible.
Anyway, there was a lot to improve. Modern brakes work better when the
rim is wet and have a lot less hysteresis. I guess some of the disc
brake hype comes from people switching from old rim brakes to new disc
brakes.




Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.
Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.

Yes. No one is arguing that they were not "improvements".
Just the amount of improvement.

See above. It depends on the time span you're looking at and is somewhat
arbitrary.

....


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals.
They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe
road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s.
Same ones Lemond used.

Indeed.

Well, I used clips initially on the Peugeot, but without the strap,
sometimes called "Ladyhaken" (lady clips) around here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_pedal#Quill
then bought Shimano M232 in 1995 and PD-M525 in '96.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote:

I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used.

Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club mileage
(11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his individual rides) just
got a new pair of shoes for riding. They're ordinary New Balance
sneakers. He rides using toe clips.

--
- Frank Krygowski