Power Meters?

On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.

On 5/1/2021 3:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.

I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?

But I suspect that the main safety problem may be that an E-bike simply
allows people to go faster than their skills and reflexes can handle. On
another forum, someone pointed out that until now being fast came only
very gradually, and only because of countless miles and hours of
experience. People learned to avoid certain mistakes while they were
still riding at low speeds.

Now people can spend money and immediately become as fast as an
experienced racer. But they have no experience, little skill and
insufficient knowledge to stay out of trouble.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:50:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 4:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 9:41:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

You could put a power meter on a beater to monitor your recovery from a heart attack. Power-meter (and heart monitor) are purchased by elite athletes and old ladies. People have a lot of reasons for wanting power data -- including plain old curiosity. It's not just the latest and greatest mentality.
People may have lots of reasons they think they want a power meter, but
my point is it's not going to make a significant difference to anyone
but a racer.

You don't really need one to get in shape; and if it does help you get
in slightly-even-better shape, so what? If you're not racing, it just
doesn't matter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/1/2021 12:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zaterdag 1 mei 2021 om 01:00:03 UTC+2 schreef Mark J.:
On 4/30/2021 2:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 30 april 2021 om 18:41:31 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Like any other commercial industry.


Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

Also for non racers there are many improvements and E bikes is certainly a game changer. It's a 'plaque' around here. Now also 'old' people can go fast or less fast without getting tired or sweating. Teenager already go to school on a E bike.

Lou

Agree, but please tell me what 'plaque' means in this context?

Mark J.


Ai, lot of typos. What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.

Lou

Ahh, got it.
Mark J.

On 5/1/2021 7:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?

But I suspect that the main safety problem may be that an E-bike simply
allows people to go faster than their skills and reflexes can handle. On
another forum, someone pointed out that until now being fast came only
very gradually, and only because of countless miles and hours of
experience. People learned to avoid certain mistakes while they were
still riding at low speeds.

Now people can spend money and immediately become as fast as an
experienced racer. But they have no experience, little skill and
insufficient knowledge to stay out of trouble.


I've ridden two different E-bikes, both for about 200 feet, "just to see."

My impression is that they just handle *differently* and they surprise
our inadequate, or perhaps just *ingrained* reflexes.

My personal experience is probably due to a lifetime habit of hitting
the first pedal stroke quite firmly from a stop. Doing that on my
wife's E-bike threatened to shoot it out from underneath me. Same on
the other E-bike (at a public demo). In retrospect, the acceleration
probably wasn't *that* great, it's just that a lifetime of doing this
generates a bunch of subconscious, reflexive expectations - and the
E-bike is *different* from those expectations.

Kind of like switching from my minivan (VERY sensitive accelerator
pedal, very soft brake pedal) to my Prius (fairly soft accelerator
pedal, very sensitive brake pedal) and vice-versa. In the van after
days in the Prius, I tend to "peel out" from stops without meaning to.
In the Prius after the van, I hit the brakes so hard I lurch forward in
my seat. Neither car is "dangerous," and my skill level is the same in
both, but they're *different* and I tend to subconsciously continue what
the *other* car required.

Mark J.

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 7:57:05 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/1/2021 3:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then.. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.
I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?

Most ebikes have power settings and software that moderate the amount of motor assist depending on the gear and rider input, so if you take my wife's Vado, select power level 3, put it in the smallest cog and hit it, the thing feels like an e-motorcycle. Riding it that way is not good for the battery or the motor, but even with maximum motor assist, the bike is not dangerous or hard to control. If you put the bike on power level 1 and pick a gear appropriate to the terrain, the assist is like "normal guy with tailwind.." That is how the bike should be ridden for maximum battery and motor life. My wife does not feel imperiled riding with me or my son or with her neighborhood old lady ebike posse. Her speed is notable only going up hill, and on the flats, she is JRA at a nice clip that she could not accomplish without some motor assist.

The problem with ebikes in a commuter pack is the speed differential and the fact that a lot of people like to hit the maximum power setting, drop it in a low gear and ride it like a motorcycle among other cyclists. That's an obvious problem riding with slower, non-motorized riders and is not particularly good for the bike's battery, motor or drivetrain either.

-- Jay Beattie.

Op zaterdag 1 mei 2021 om 19:36:16 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 7:57:05 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/1/2021 3:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce.. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.
I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?
Most ebikes have power settings and software that moderate the amount of motor assist depending on the gear and rider input, so if you take my wife's Vado, select power level 3, put it in the smallest cog and hit it, the thing feels like an e-motorcycle. Riding it that way is not good for the battery or the motor, but even with maximum motor assist, the bike is not dangerous or hard to control. If you put the bike on power level 1 and pick a gear appropriate to the terrain, the assist is like "normal guy with tailwind.." That is how the bike should be ridden for maximum battery and motor life.. My wife does not feel imperiled riding with me or my son or with her neighborhood old lady ebike posse. Her speed is notable only going up hill, and on the flats, she is JRA at a nice clip that she could not accomplish without some motor assist.

The problem with ebikes in a commuter pack is the speed differential and the fact that a lot of people like to hit the maximum power setting, drop it in a low gear and ride it like a motorcycle among other cyclists. That's an obvious problem riding with slower, non-motorized riders and is not particularly good for the bike's battery, motor or drivetrain either.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, Frank I was talking about this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrrz...117gFDM7U ePg

This clip was from 2013. Currently all of these people are on E bikes; all of them. To be fair the groups are not as large as you see in the clip. Most of the times 4-10 people.

Lou

Op zaterdag 1 mei 2021 om 19:36:16 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 7:57:05 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/1/2021 3:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce.. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.
I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?
Most ebikes have power settings and software that moderate the amount of motor assist depending on the gear and rider input, so if you take my wife's Vado, select power level 3, put it in the smallest cog and hit it, the thing feels like an e-motorcycle. Riding it that way is not good for the battery or the motor, but even with maximum motor assist, the bike is not dangerous or hard to control. If you put the bike on power level 1 and pick a gear appropriate to the terrain, the assist is like "normal guy with tailwind.." That is how the bike should be ridden for maximum battery and motor life.. My wife does not feel imperiled riding with me or my son or with her neighborhood old lady ebike posse. Her speed is notable only going up hill, and on the flats, she is JRA at a nice clip that she could not accomplish without some motor assist.

The problem with ebikes in a commuter pack is the speed differential and the fact that a lot of people like to hit the maximum power setting, drop it in a low gear and ride it like a motorcycle among other cyclists. That's an obvious problem riding with slower, non-motorized riders and is not particularly good for the bike's battery, motor or drivetrain either.

-- Jay Beattie.

Typical E bike rider her in the Netherlands:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8XJ5uJepSASL4Mhz7

Lou

On 5/1/2021 10:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 9:11:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:50:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 4:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 9:41:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2021 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't complain if it was $25. But we're talking $500 and up. And that is a lot of money for almost no return.
That logic applies as well to almost every "you gotta have it!" bit of
bike technology since index shifting. The industry is chasing after ever
diminishing improvements and touting them as necessary.

Since index, the only real game changer for anyone except racers has
been e-bikes. And that's because they're a step away from being a bicycle.

You could put a power meter on a beater to monitor your recovery from a heart attack. Power-meter (and heart monitor) are purchased by elite athletes and old ladies. People have a lot of reasons for wanting power data -- including plain old curiosity. It's not just the latest and greatest mentality.
People may have lots of reasons they think they want a power meter, but
my point is it's not going to make a significant difference to anyone
but a racer.

You don't really need one to get in shape; and if it does help you get
in slightly-even-better shape, so what? If you're not racing, it just
doesn't matter.
I don't think that it gets you in better shape - I believe that it gets you into your best shape a little more rapidly. It is really clear to me when I get into shape, suddenly the hills are no longer endless and while I expend just as much energy it doesn't hurt so much and I am not sore for days.

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.
You'll probably love the guitar and enjoy it each time you play it.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 11:19:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op zaterdag 1 mei 2021 om 19:36:16 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 7:57:05 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/1/2021 3:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.
I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?
Most ebikes have power settings and software that moderate the amount of motor assist depending on the gear and rider input, so if you take my wife's Vado, select power level 3, put it in the smallest cog and hit it, the thing feels like an e-motorcycle. Riding it that way is not good for the battery or the motor, but even with maximum motor assist, the bike is not dangerous or hard to control. If you put the bike on power level 1 and pick a gear appropriate to the terrain, the assist is like "normal guy with tailwind." That is how the bike should be ridden for maximum battery and motor life. My wife does not feel imperiled riding with me or my son or with her neighborhood old lady ebike posse. Her speed is notable only going up hill, and on the flats, she is JRA at a nice clip that she could not accomplish without some motor assist.

The problem with ebikes in a commuter pack is the speed differential and the fact that a lot of people like to hit the maximum power setting, drop it in a low gear and ride it like a motorcycle among other cyclists. That's an obvious problem riding with slower, non-motorized riders and is not particularly good for the bike's battery, motor or drivetrain either.

-- Jay Beattie.
Jay, Frank I was talking about this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrrz...117gFDM7U ePg

This clip was from 2013. Currently all of these people are on E bikes; all of them. To be fair the groups are not as large as you see in the clip. Most of the times 4-10 people.

Lou
`
Lou, how old would you estimate the people in that group to be? Motor vehicles (including e-bikes) have a lot more rake and trail in them so that you can't power the wheel over and go over the handlebars. This is the source of people riding these bikes looking very comfortable. Handling is slow purposely. I was dropped several times by young ladies that appeared to be non-bike riders who were sitting bolt upright and talking back and forth to one another without a thought of having to steer to stay in their lane.