#81
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Rear-View Mirrors
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:45:31 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, Stephen
Harding wrote: I don't wear a helmet and the one's attached to glasses seem to strain my eye. Nothing like the head strain you'll get the next time you go over your handlebars. |
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#82
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Rear-View Mirrors
"Tom Keats" wrote in message ... In article , "Roger Zoul" writes: "Tom Keats" wrote in message ... In article , "Roger Zoul" writes: Shoulder checking both to the left and right without swerving is an easily-enough acquired bicycle riding basic skill (with practice.) Once one has the skill, one doesn't really need to rely upon redundant accoutrements along with their limitations, in order to lazily avoid a little initial effort and practice. And it seems to me, the more skills a rider acquires, the more empowered he or she becomes. Looking at the thing itself instead of its reflection gives the advantage of depth perception, and avoids certain optical effects impinged by mirrors, such as image darkening, washing-out of certain colours, and distorted image sizes ("objects in mirror are closer than they appear.") Wow....spew total nonsense. A simple glance at a mirror is enough to know all you need for the given situation. It not as though you need to read a PhD disseration in a mirror. If one is going to use use a mirror, one might as well be aware of its limitations -- what to expect, and what not to expect of it. Shoulder checking also enables a rider to make eye-contact communication with fellow road/street users behind, and signals that the shoulder checking rider is about to change his vector -- perhaps for a lane change, perhaps for a turn. /That's/ what looking rearward is for, not for seeing if some intangible threat is there, like the Boogie Man hiding under one's bed. Why would someone using a mirror not shoulder check? Do you assume that because the mirror is there that the rider isn't going to move his/her head to check what's in the spot right next to him/her? In that case, the mirror is a redundant accessory. If the rider has already looked directly, why would he then use the mirror? It's not at all redundant because you can also check your rear quickly without moving your head to actually look behind you. Do you even know what a shoulder check is? Another clueless statement. There are plenty of times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there. Why, if you're maintaining a predictable line? Good grief. This is a sure sign of closed-mindedness. Just because I'm maintaining a predictable line doesn't mean that there is no reason why I may need to shift positions. A single glance that takes only an instant, with no need to look behind. And that leaves you with an incomplete view. It's called situatational partial awareness. How do you know whether I have an incomplete view or not. You're just making **** up, Tom. I am in the very best position to know if I feel my view to the rear has given me a complete view. Your arguments are foolishness. An "instant" or a quick glance might not be long enough to collect enough visual information, while lingering long look might be too much of a distraction from the more important forward view. The human brain takes a little time to assimilate visual information. Not much time, but there's a differential between noticing something, and figuring out what it's doing and how your unpredictable manouevers might affect it. It seems to me, folks who over-rely on mirrors are happy to thoughtlessly notice the stuff that might kill them. It seems to be that you're just being closed-minded and assuming that your word arguments have any meaning whatsoever to the reality faced by eithers. It's call situational awareness and it is quite obvious from your comments that you have no idea about this. I can turn my head and look behind me without swerving, almost as easily as glancing in a mirror. But It's worth it, because I get a much better picture of what's happening back there. Nonsense. 1) there is a lot more effort involved any way you measure it. 2) You do not get a much better picture. You are just claiming that you do. Again, utter bull****. I confess to having a handlebar mirror on my main bike. It's convenient for quick, half-the-story glances. Sometimes it reassures me that the top of my cargo trailer is still on, and my laundry isn't flying out all over the street, while I still keep an eye on what's up ahead. So you're using a mirror, then. It enhances your situational awareness, but you don't depend on it totally. Exactly! You have a full range of senses and your vision is a very powerful one. If you eyes are open then they can collection information over a continuum of different possible positions. It's powerful, not otherwise. There have been occasions where other riders have passed me on my right, threading the needle between me and a line of parked cars, through the door zone. I guess they want to show off how fast they are, but they're scared to venture deeper into where the cars go. I confess to being caught by surprise a few times by this stupid maneouver. I'm wise to it now. It usually happens when the fair-weather riders come out of the woodwork. My handlebar mirror gives no indication of this when it's incipient. A shoulder-check to the ~right~, would. One has to be alert to the presence of upcoming other riders, as well as cars. Especially when riders pull boneheaded stunts such as I described above. In those situations, I maintain "a simple glance at a mirror is enough to know all you need for the given situation" just doesn't cut the mustard. You can maintain all you like, but you still clueless. I guess you think I deserve that dig. Obviously, I do. As for "situational awareness", /you/ try driving a forklift around a narrow crossdock warehouse with a bunch of unaware temp workers traipsing lackadaisically around across the floor, with a 7' high palletful of goods on your fork blades, while using mirrors instead of driving + looking backwards in your direction of travel. Oh, f***ing yeah! Looking backwards on a bike isn't in your direction of travel. In fact, it's the opposite. But it still can be done by anyone who has a healthy enough neck to ride a normal bike. Who said it could not be done? Again, nonsensical arguments posted as some kind of logic thought. I dunno. Make love to your mirror and call me clueless, for all I care. Yes, I shall call you clueless since you seem to think you can provide a logic that justifies any position you wish to take just because you don't like or want to wear a mirror. Your not wearing a mirror is fine with me, but your nonsense just shows you for who you are. Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em. Who said they were necessities? They are helpful, but I can still ride safely without one. A mirror still increases my situational awareness and thus I choose to use one. I still wish you well 'cuz I'm a nice guy, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#83
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Rear-View Mirrors
I propose we do a scientific study with double-blind testing on mirror
effectiveness. Any volunteers to be test subjects? I'll supply the blindfolds. ;-) -alan -- Alan Hoyle - - http://www.alanhoyle.com/ |
#84
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Rear-View Mirrors
Roger Zoul wrote:
"Tom Keats" wrote in message ... [...] Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em. Who said they were necessities? They are helpful, but I can still ride safely without one.[...] Even on the Stratus? -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll |
#85
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Rear-View Mirrors
In article ,
Andrew Price writes: On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:59:10 -0800, (Tom Keats) wrote: [---] A couple of weeks ago I rode to the laundromat with my trailerload of laundry. I sneaked up on it via a shaded side street and almost lost it on black ice. Less than half a block away, I decided to dismount and walk. I think I'd rather buy a washing machine that put up with that... People will drive cars to up as close as they can get to their destinations, and still have to hoof it for a number of blocks. I prefer to invest in a bike & trailer. There's not really much "putting up with" other than the general PITA of laundry day. Fortunately for me my local laundromat is surrounded by various delis (including a Brazilian one,) a hot wings place, pizzaria, a couple of green grocers, a couple of indie coffee shops, the best butcher shop, and the laundromat has a Mr Submarine right next door (less lettuce, more hot pickles,) as well as a popular Filipino restaurant. There're also a number of boutiques, sporting goods shops, a venerable ol' bike shop that also does key-cutting, a couple of electronics parts shops, up-market 2'nd hand shops, and a store that sells games, from whence I purchased my ginourmous double-twelve, leather-bound dominoes set. Any excuse for a ride. Or a ride + a little walk. Or even just a walk. I live in (North American) bicycle heaven. Yeah -- any excuse for a ride. As long as I don't have to drop the bike and run like a triathlete. I get enough of that while commuting, getting off the rapid transit train, and catching the early connecting bus. But occasionally dismounting from the bike & walking is no big deal. One gets the best of both worlds that way. Vancouver is a place where you can ride to one area, get off the bike & walk around and enjoy the flavour of that scene, then ride to another area and get off the bike walk around and enjoy that place, too. And then the next area. It could be a solitary, nocturnal beach, a market zone, a mixed commercial/residential place, or whatever. But I'll tell ya what -- the urban cycling is good here. Well, I guess it's fair to say it could be worse; it could be better. If you just wanna go on yer bike, you can pretty much do that anywhere. But if you wanna go somewhere for some practical purpose on yer bike, Vancouver is a good place to be in. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#86
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Rear-View Mirrors
In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes: I dunno. Make love to your mirror and call me clueless, for all I care. Yes, I shall call you clueless since you seem to think you can provide a logic that justifies any position you wish to take just because you don't like or want to wear a mirror. No. My personal approach to mirrors is that while they can sometimes be helpful, they're not necessary, and I doubt the need for them in terms of somebody who can ride a conventional bike & look behind without hurting their neck. Your not wearing a mirror is fine with me, but your nonsense just shows you for who you are. I realize, and am bearing in mind that you're coming at this from two points of view -- recumbent and conventional bicycle. And I recognize that some certain recumbent configs just totally kill the ability to shoulder-check, so mirrors are relied upon in those circumstances. Honestly. I don't know if that's what you've got. Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em. Who said they were necessities? They are helpful, but I can still ride safely without one. A mirror still increases my situational awareness and thus I choose to use one. Roger, I don't wan't animosity between us. I sincerely don't. We riders have to stick together and support each other. And I think you're a nice guy. In my curmudgeonly old age, at work I've kind of lost patience with kids who haven't learned patience in the first place. I guess I'm getting impatient with the lazy :-) Please, Roger -- forgive me for being such a stick-in-the-mud? Please? But anyways, a mirror on a conventional bike isn't so necessary. Maybe it helps, but I wouldn't rely on it. Some certain recumbent configs need RV mirrors. May The Lord bless you with the first thing you need, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#87
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Rear-View Mirrors
In article ,
Crazy Fred writes: On Feb 6, 12:19*am, "Roger Zoul" wrote: "Tom Keats" wrote in message ... In article , "Roger Zoul" writes: Shoulder checking both to the left and right without swerving is an easily-enough acquired bicycle riding basic skill (with practice.) *Once one has the skill, one doesn't really need to rely upon redundant accoutrements along with their limitations, in order to lazily avoid a little initial effort and practice. And it seems to me, the more skills a rider acquires, the more empowered he or she becomes. Looking at the thing itself instead of its reflection gives the advantage of depth perception, and avoids certain optical effects impinged by mirrors, such as image darkening, washing-out of certain colours, and distorted image sizes ("objects in mirror are closer than they appear.") Wow....spew total nonsense. *A simple glance at a mirror is enough to know all you need for the given situation. It not as though you need to read a PhD disseration in a mirror. If one is going to use use a mirror, one might as well be aware of its limitations -- what to expect, and what not to expect of it. Shoulder checking also enables a rider to make eye-contact communication with fellow road/street users behind, and signals that the shoulder checking rider is about to change his vector -- perhaps for a lane change, perhaps for a turn. */That's/ what looking rearward is for, not for seeing if some intangible threat is there, like the Boogie Man hiding under one's bed. Why would someone using a mirror not shoulder check? *Do you assume that because the mirror is there that the rider isn't going to move his/her head to check what's in the spot right next to him/her? In that case, the mirror is a redundant accessory. If the rider has already looked directly, why would he then use the mirror? It's not at all redundant because you can also check your rear quickly without moving your head to actually look behind you. There are plenty of times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there. A single glance that takes only an instant, with no need to look behind. It's call situational awareness and it is quite obvious from your comments that you have no idea about this. I confess to having a handlebar mirror on my main bike. It's convenient for quick, half-the-story glances. Sometimes it reassures me that the top of my cargo trailer is still on, and my laundry isn't flying out all over the street, while I still keep an eye on what's up ahead. So you're using a mirror, then. It enhances your situational awareness, but you don't depend on it totally. Exactly! You have a full range of senses and your vision is a very powerful one. If you eyes are open then they can collection information over a continuum of different possible positions. *It's powerful, not otherwise. There have been occasions where other riders have passed me on my right, threading the needle between me and a line of parked cars, through the door zone. I guess they want to show off how fast they are, but they're scared to venture deeper into where the cars go. I confess to being caught by surprise a few times by this stupid maneouver. *I'm wise to it now. *It usually happens when the fair-weather riders come out of the woodwork. My handlebar mirror gives no indication of this when it's incipient. A shoulder-check to the ~right~, would. One has to be alert to the presence of upcoming other riders, as well as cars. Especially when riders pull boneheaded stunts such as I described above. *In those situations, I maintain "a simple glance at a mirror is enough to know all you need for the given situation" just doesn't cut the mustard. You can maintain all you like, but you still clueless. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well I ran into a situaton. I ride in cold cold temps. So I wear hoodies and last month due to an inner ear infection I lost the hearing in my right ear. I lost my mirror in a fall so I was totally lost not knowing what was behind me. I ran out and got a new one and I feel safe seeing in the rear. Only time I don't use mirrors while mountain biking. There's this tune by the Chameleons (UK) called: "Don't Fall." Then there's Chris Squire's "Silently Falling" on his "Fish Out of Water" cd. Inner ear stuff is serious. Actually, balance-losing stuff is pretty serious. Since you mention falling, I assume you fell on your bike. That's not good. Have the ear thing professionally looked-at. We all need our built-in ears in general life, more than any aftermarket bike mirrors. That's our gyroscopes/guidance systems. (Native folks sure hate those allusions to heartless, lifeless technology.) -- klahowya, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#88
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Rear-View Mirrors
In article ,
"PatTX" writes: Tom Keats wrote: :: The ability to ride without mirrors (or other such "transitional :: objects[*]") is ... well, I hesitate to say: a survival skill, :: but it's good to have in one's skills toolkit. And it's so easy :: to acquire! Maybe easier than losing 10 lbs by dieting alone, :: without accompanying exercise. But there are always some folks :: who just don't have the balls or the willingness to do it. Do you realize how "I think I'm morally superior to you because I don't like mirrors!" you sound? or the "If you're not just like me then you're clueless!" I encourage my fellow riders to enhance their skill sets and capabilities. It's not about moral superiority. The ability to shoulder-check without swerving is crucial to possess, and yet so trivial to acquire. It's not rocket surgery. Heck, I'm morally inferior to just about everybody here. But I can look behind me while riding my bike, because I made the little bit of effort to learn to do so. So, I'm here to say it's easy. You don't necessarily need a mirror on a bicycle. Mirrors are too easily relied upon despite their failings. I've already itemized my criticisms of 'em, but I guess I just don't have enough cred to be taken seriously. Okay. I don't even want cred. I just wanna keep my own skin on. I'll respectfully leave it to others to accomplish the same thing in their own ways. But I'll tell ya what -- riding a bike without a mirror is no big whoop. It never was. cheers, Tom -- "What you see is what you get." -- Flip Wilson |
#89
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Rear-View Mirrors
On Jan 30, 10:34*pm, wrote:
snip I have a different perspective and cannot even have a civil discussion about it with many of today's riders. I think that says everything you have to say about it. the mirrors; I find the kind that clips on your glasses to be a better version than the helmet mounted kind. I no longer have the one I initially bought but am on the look-out for the same kind to replace it with. Initially it took some getting used to but I got to like having it available. TBerk |
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