Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-05 12:39, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 9:55:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 08:25, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 7:08:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For
example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15
years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the
industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore
carpal tunnel problems.

On B52's the Bomb/Nav system would set the cross-hairs on the
target with a "joy stick" which was shaped as the name would
imply. You could set the cross hairs on the target and hold them
there and the bombing computer would automatically compensate for
wind and the effects it was having on the aircraft.

When I designed a robotic chemical placement mechanism with a
computer interface I designed a joystick into it. The mechanical
engineer constructed this as a light weight plastic structure.

The end result was that you had to hold the base of the joystick
in one hand while setting the cross-hairs on each vial to be
moved from point A to point B.

This was pretty clumsy so Dr. Michael McCown removed the top of
the mechanism so that the gears that moved the variable resisters
were showing. He tipped this upside down and would use it just
like a mouse.


That's a smart way to "fix" the design. I'd probably have screwed
or glued it down to some thick steel plate, something I have done
to a lot of things that I didn't want to slide about. The "feet"
were usually bicycle tube snippets.


At this time there were no mice. Not a long time after than mice
showed up on the scene. I don't know if it was my and Dr.
McCown's cooperation improved or if someone else came up with
that independently but I do know that Dr. McCown most certainly
was the first to be using a mouse-like mechanism.


Was it before 1964?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/te...ies-at-88.html


That is extremely odd - that wooden thing looks exactly like our
plastic version. You can see the X-Y coordinate wheels. Ours were
plastic gears but almost identical in composition.

When we started this project we sat in a meeting with several VERY
high level Chemists and Engineers. The PhD engineers said that in
order to accomplish the project they needed two of IBM's super
computers of the time. They cost about $3 million at the time.


That's what you often get with "VERY high level" engineers.


... I
looked at Dr. McCown and then said to this large meeting, "I can do
that with a microprocessor". I was almost laughed out of the meeting
but they gave me a chance ...


That is the very mechanism how I made most of the income over my career.
A lot of times the notion was "So all these big companies ground down
their teeth on it, couldn't do it cheaper, and you think you can?". Many
times such a project started a longterm client relationship.


... with Dr. McCown to "manage" me. Mike was a
chemist so he had no idea what I was doing until I would present it
to him to criticize. After it looked good, we got a couple of
mechanical engineers involved and then a raft load of chemists. I
didn't hear any more laughing from those PhD's. The modern version of
these DNA analyzers are still made.

That must have been circa 1970 or so.


Nice! It is a great feeling to see your stuff has a very long production
life.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:08:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?


Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the
downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the
hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist
them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads.

But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for
pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars,
and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much
flatter setup.


It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example,
computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they
still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until
enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems.

I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this
can't be good.


I was using a computer long before a "mouse" was anything but a tiny
creature and I've yet to develop carpal tunnel problems.



Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50
years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore?


Who knows :-)

It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't
figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do.

Amazing!

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-05 18:11, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:13:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 16:38, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?

Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli
"Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's
with a modern bar.

Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of
shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the
later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top
of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top
flat section of the bars."

Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate
mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a
change.)

Mark J.

I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I
hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least
to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward
to use with the old "bars twisted down" position.


Though the rider in the 2001 video at, for example, 1:04 min seems to
have classic downtube shifters. The bar is still slanted but the hoods
are formed such that his hands rest flat like on new flatter bars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

Yes, noticeably the two leaders #23 and #97 were using "brifters" and
the modern bar position but in very early shots there seemed to be
other riders using the old style bars.

In addition other photos from 2001, the 2001 TdeF, shows all the
leaders using the "new style" bars.


And sometimes other stuff that makes them leader but later gets them
disqualified 8-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.

There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.

For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going to get.
Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if they can't afford
new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is IMO not
overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would never pass muster at
type certification for motor vehicles. There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't so :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going to get.
Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if they can't afford
new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is IMO not
overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would never pass muster at
type certification for motor vehicles. There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way down, it
must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast, I almost never
experience such a close call; therefore I'd never be able to see a big
reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close calls are
almost always due in part to rider error - specifically, inviting close
passes by riding too far to the right.

Every reputable bicycle education effort tells cyclists to stay away
from the road's edge, especially when the lane is too narrow to safely
share. That was true yet again on today's ride. We controlled the lanes
during almost the entire ride. We were never passed closely.

Cyclists who learn to ride this way experience almost no close passes.
You can stick your head in the sand again and pretend it isn't so.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going to get.
Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if they can't
afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is IMO not
overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would never pass muster
at type certification for motor vehicles. There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to accomplish.

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way down, it
must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast, I almost never
experience such a close call; therefore I'd never be able to see a big
reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close calls are
almost always due in part to rider error - specifically, inviting close
passes by riding too far to the right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died because
of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk tried to
evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, July 6, 2017 at 1:02:53 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 3:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-06 12:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.


As I said, people got used to that this is all they are going to get.
Just like people get used to walking in worn shoes if they can't
afford new ones.


There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.


A vehicle where the light does not go out or dim way down is IMO not
overkill. The lighting "system" bicyles have would never pass muster
at type certification for motor vehicles. There are good reasons why not.


For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.


I have never been hit from behind either but the number of close calls
has noticeably decreased since I have bright rear lights. Mission
accomplished. The best is, this was never very expensive to accomplish..

Now you can stick the head in the sand again and pretend it ain't so :-)

We've been over this multiple times, but:

If your number of close calls for hits-from-behind has gone way down, it
must have been pretty high to begin with. By contrast, I almost never
experience such a close call; therefore I'd never be able to see a big
reduction.

Why don't those close calls happen to me? Because those close calls are
almost always due in part to rider error - specifically, inviting close
passes by riding too far to the right.


Yeah, right. The woman who rode in the lane on Blue Ravine died because
of that. The other woman in the pickup truck who was drunk tried to
evade but the lane was now too narrow and *BAM*

Well, Frank is right. Bicycles offer a far smaller target and if you wear bright clothing so that you don't catch drivers unaware you're pretty safe.

Unless you ride in an area and at times drunk drivers are on the road.

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 07:54:16 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:08:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?


Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the
downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the
hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist
them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads.

But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for
pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars,
and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much
flatter setup.


It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example,
computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they
still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until
enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems.

I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this
can't be good.


I was using a computer long before a "mouse" was anything but a tiny
creature and I've yet to develop carpal tunnel problems.



Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50
years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore?


Who knows :-)

It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't
figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do.

Amazing!

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

What you are saying is that, "it works" and "I have no problems using
it" aren't good enough, I've got to get out there and buy the latest,
greatest, just designed, Raz-ma-taz, doohickey that fits the
description that "it works" and I have no problems using it".

Back in my misspent youth I spent some time in Japan and for a year or
so I rode a very much used Japanese bike back and forth to work. It
had a bottle generator and incandescent lights. For the entire period
I had no problems with the lights which essentially cost nothing as
they were on the bike when I bought it (and when I later sold it) I
rode safely back and forth every day, never a single accident, and, if
I remember correctly my total costs for the one year plus period was
one replacement inner tube.

Please explain how the miracle Joerg lights would have been an
improvement. Been cheaper? Made my life better? Defeated global
warming?


--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:05:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/6/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-05 17:49, John B. wrote:

Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and
years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An
essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course,
do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the
'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but
no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that
anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still
receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA.

Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding
without Joerg built lights.


It's simple. Most humans have a habit of accepting current
state-of-the-art as "that's as good as it gets". I don't, and I derive
most of my income from not thinking that way. And yes, I already had
bicycles with real electrical systems when I was a teenager.

The detail you're missing is that people have always ridden
_successfully_ without the systems you deem necessary.

There are always people who are into overkill. Some of those will claim
or pretend that their favorite overkill item is actually a necessity.
But that's disproven by every person who does well without the overkill
item.

For just one example: I'm just back from another club ride. About 15
people were on the ride. Two of them had the newly fashionable daytime
rear blinkies. This particular ride has occurred once per week every
week except in winter for, oh, perhaps ten years. Nobody has ever been
hit by a car, despite the thousands of person-miles ridden (GASP!)
without blinkies.

But Frank, just like a helmet a rear blinkie MIGHT save your life :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.