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Tin plated wire for binding spokes



 
 
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  #71  
Old March 13th 09, 10:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nick L Plate
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Posts: 1,114
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On 13 Mar, 20:41, "Clive George" wrote:
"Nick L Plate" wrote in ...

The reduction of tension in the bottom spokes will leave some
wheels with inadequate lateral stability, only testable at the bottom
of the wheel.


Would those wheels be ones where the spokes had inadequate tension in the
first place?


This is precicely how inadequate tension presents. Wheels with
excessive tension may have difficulty surviving the test as any
appreciable side load will encourage buckling with such a wheel.
Spoke gauge, count, and installation also play their role with
radial,lateral and torsional stiffness.

TJ
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  #72  
Old March 14th 09, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam
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Posts: 5,758
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

wrote:
Trevor Jeffrey wrote:

So now we know. From the evidence of the book, he did not test
any Tied and soldered wheels.


The wheels that Jobst tested were tied and soldered by Rik
Hjertberg of WheelSmith when his shop was in Palo Alto.


It does not say this in the book, how do you know this?


I've described the sequence of event often in years past here on
wreck.bike. It isn't a secret. Besides, I have no skill or wire for
tied and soldered wheels and I wanted an impartial expert to do the
job.

If you know this to be tru, perhaps you could enlighten me, to what
standard were the wheels constructed.


To the tension and trueness that Wheelsmith built them, using my
tensiometer as a guide.

http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/sh...ize=big&sort=1

That's Rik's hand in the picture.


er. jobst, that's not the wheel you tested for your book. and your
tensiometer doesn't account for spoke stiffness - kind of a problem
dontcherknow.



The way you question this seems to assume nothing is true but is
generated from contributors imagination. I sense that this may be
true for some writers in this newsgroup.


so why would we accept as "true" the writings of a guy that can't follow
scientific method, doesn't educate himself sufficiently for his proposed
expertise, and presents presumption and underinformed guesswork as fact?
oh, and who cites non-contemporaneous material as evidence???

  #73  
Old March 14th 09, 05:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nick L Plate
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Posts: 1,114
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On 14 Mar, 01:06, jim beam wrote:
wrote:
Trevor Jeffrey wrote:


So now we know. *From the evidence of the book, he did not test
any Tied and soldered wheels.


The wheels that Jobst tested were tied and soldered by Rik
Hjertberg of WheelSmith when his shop was in Palo Alto.


It does not say this in the book, how do you know this?


I've described the sequence of event often in years past here on
wreck.bike. *It isn't a secret. *Besides, I have no skill or wire for
tied and soldered wheels and I wanted an impartial expert to do the
job.


If you know this to be tru, perhaps you could enlighten me, to what
standard were the wheels constructed.


To the tension and trueness that Wheelsmith built them, using my
tensiometer as a guide.


*http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/sh...122&cat=500&si...


That's Rik's hand in the picture.


er. jobst, that's not the wheel you tested for your book. *and your
tensiometer doesn't account for spoke stiffness - kind of a problem
dontcherknow.



The way you question this seems to assume nothing is true but is
generated from contributors imagination. *I sense that this may be
true for some writers in this newsgroup.


so why would we accept as "true" the writings of a guy that can't follow
scientific method, doesn't educate himself sufficiently for his proposed
expertise, and presents presumption and underinformed guesswork as fact?
* oh, and who cites non-contemporaneous material as evidence???


It seems that this Rick at Wheelsmith does not double tie his spokes
and does not use steel wire but 28 gauge copper wire as I had
assumed. He does not shape the spokes at the crossings and only uses
a short contact time with an 80 watt electric iron, so it is unlikely
that any accidental shaping could take place. So it would be more
than likely that there would be little if any advantage to this method
of tying the spokes. There is also no method of testing the joint. I
don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable
to asses its suitability, a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong'
solder. The information on his soldering methods can be found at
wheelfanatyk .

Rik's work may look pretty, but it wont do the job.
The correct way is: Steel wire, tightly bound + 60/40 lead/tin solder
at two crossings with the removal of spoke bows by kinking at the
crossing(s). Then re-balance tension in spokes.

TJ
  #74  
Old March 14th 09, 01:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
_[_2_]
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Posts: 1,228
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate wrote:

I
don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable
to asses its suitability, a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong'
solder. The information on his soldering methods can be found at
wheelfanatyk .



Of all common forms of solder, tin-lead is at or near the bottom of the
table for strength, and I suspect (given its high elongation) for creep.
Typical values for yield strength are around 4000 psi - much less than the
various tin-silver-bismuth-(copper/indium/zinc) solders at over 10,000 psi
and totally dwarfed by a true silver-solder which will have yield strength
over 50,000 psi.

"Stay-Brite" appears to be one of the low-silver solder alloys - just under
4% silver ("Stay-Brite-8 is 5%) and the remainder tin; tensile strength for
both is given as 14,000 psi.

While the eutectic form of tin-lead solder (60/40 as in the post above is
close) does have the greatest strength of the various tin-lead alloys, it
is disingenuous at best to describe it as "strong".

And in passing, I also would like to see a photo posted of one of those
"kinked" spokes - preferably by someone other than the poster above; we
don't want a repeat of the "jim beam" broken brake-bolt fabrication, do
we...
  #75  
Old March 14th 09, 03:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nick L Plate
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Posts: 1,114
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On 14 Mar, 12:48, _
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate wrote:
I
don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable
to asses its suitability, *a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong'
solder. *The information on his soldering methods can be found at
wheelfanatyk .


Of all common forms of solder, tin-lead is at or near the bottom of the
table for strength, and I suspect (given its high elongation) for creep.
Typical values for yield strength are around 4000 psi - much less than the
various tin-silver-bismuth-(copper/indium/zinc) solders at over 10,000 psi
and totally dwarfed by a true silver-solder which will have yield strength
over 50,000 psi.

"Stay-Brite" appears to be one of the low-silver solder alloys - just under
4% silver ("Stay-Brite-8 is 5%) and the remainder tin; tensile strength for
both is given as 14,000 psi.

While the eutectic form of tin-lead solder (60/40 as in the post above is
close) does have the greatest strength of the various tin-lead alloys, it
is disingenuous at best to describe it as "strong".

And in passing, I also would like to see a photo posted of one of those
"kinked" spokes - preferably by someone other than the poster above; we
don't want a repeat of the "jim beam" broken brake-bolt fabrication, do
we...


The 60/40 solder is strong and economical within the tin/lead range.
I will use hydrochloric acid( needs zinc added to it first) as a flux
to enable the bonding with a zinc plated spoke (unless someone can
give me their view on alternative flux). It appears you do not know
the tensile strength of 60/40 tin lead. It does not matter as it's
the shear strength which is important in a solder joint. This is why
'tensile strength' quotes are irrelevant. Some of the zinc will be
taken up by the solder and alter the joints structure anyway. Best to
stick to what I know will bond and have joint integrity than use a mix
with a quoted 'tensile strength' which alters according to the metal
it is alloying with.

With a steel binding tightly wound, the parting stress at the second
joint from the rim will be taken by the stiffer steel than by the
solder. The sliding joint nearest the rim will be bound tightly with
eight turns of wire. There should be sufficient solder within the
0.002 to 0.006" range of the joint to resist the continually differing
tensions within the spokes.

I'm just having some problems with nicking of the binding wire,
resulting in snapping upon tensioning, so I will grind of the sharp
edge of my new pointy pliers (radio pliers copy). I bought these new
pliers because I was nicked by the joint of my genuine radio pliers
and these new ones have moulded handles and have slightly longer jaws
easing thier use. I dont expect them to last too long, if they work
out good, I'll reserve them for this work only. The amount of
wheelbuilds I intend doing, they'll last a long time even if they are
junk.

I'm not the only person to kink the spokes for a better wheel build
who has posted here. The more usual quick method is to use a
screwdriver blade at the hub end of the joint and twist the other end
with some timber. This can leave a bow in the other direction between
the joint and the rim. I press the spokes into shape with the spokes
and nipples installed but still loose, using my fingers/thumbs and a
metal 'thimble', which is currently my Cylclo mini nipple key. This
leaves the rest of the spoke straight. It is a little more difficult
to do with stainless steel, even in a thinner gauge than with low/
medium carbon steel spokes, the carbon steel is more malleable.

TJ
  #76  
Old March 14th 09, 03:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 479
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

_ wrote:
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate wrote:

I
don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable
to asses its suitability, a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong'
solder. The information on his soldering methods can be found at
wheelfanatyk .



Of all common forms of solder, tin-lead is at or near the bottom of the
table for strength, and I suspect (given its high elongation) for creep.
Typical values for yield strength are around 4000 psi - much less than the
various tin-silver-bismuth-(copper/indium/zinc) solders at over 10,000 psi
and totally dwarfed by a true silver-solder which will have yield strength
over 50,000 psi.

"Stay-Brite" appears to be one of the low-silver solder alloys - just under
4% silver ("Stay-Brite-8 is 5%) and the remainder tin; tensile strength for
both is given as 14,000 psi.

While the eutectic form of tin-lead solder (60/40 as in the post above is
close) does have the greatest strength of the various tin-lead alloys, it
is disingenuous at best to describe it as "strong".


i wouldn't call it "disingenuous", but you're right, it's not strong.
however, it doesn't need to be so you're being an idiot trying to make a
big deal about it. all it has to do is lock the wires together and
prevent sliding - that's not a high strength requirement. you'd have
figured that out if you were thinking about the application, not simply
about arguing.



And in passing, I also would like to see a photo posted of one of those
"kinked" spokes - preferably by someone other than the poster above; we
don't want a repeat of the "jim beam" broken brake-bolt fabrication, do
we...


somebody's evidently very bored this morning. but i'm game - "**** you
jtaylor and be man enough to belly up to facts that contradict you." is
that going to oblige you? idiot dweeb.


  #77  
Old March 14th 09, 04:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nick L Plate
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,114
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On 14 Mar, 01:06, jim beam wrote:
wrote:
Trevor Jeffrey wrote:


So now we know. *From the evidence of the book, he did not test
any Tied and soldered wheels.


The wheels that Jobst tested were tied and soldered by Rik
Hjertberg of WheelSmith when his shop was in Palo Alto.


It does not say this in the book, how do you know this?


I've described the sequence of event often in years past here on
wreck.bike. *It isn't a secret. *Besides, I have no skill or wire for
tied and soldered wheels and I wanted an impartial expert to do the
job.


If you know this to be tru, perhaps you could enlighten me, to what
standard were the wheels constructed.


To the tension and trueness that Wheelsmith built them, using my
tensiometer as a guide.


*http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/sh...122&cat=500&si...


That's Rik's hand in the picture.


er. jobst, that's not the wheel you tested for your book. *and your
tensiometer doesn't account for spoke stiffness - kind of a problem
dontcherknow.


Its a modern photo of a gauge manufactured after the publication of
the book. He has been working on a time machine, dont you know. He
only needs to convince a few billion people that time really is
running backwards, and the creation is yet to come. Darwin was right
within his time, which even he didn'tt know, is still yet to happen.
It is simple really. The big bang as modern physicists call it, is
really the apocalypse yet to come, only we see it as history because
we really dont know how time works and its all bent all over the place
anyway and exists all at once in different places and sequentially in
one place. It runs backwards and forwards and stands still on its
spokes which are bound by the ties of memory and soldered by records.
So we're all materialising from our devolved state and will become as
god created us in the future 28 million years ago. Without mastering
of time, we cannot master the recording of time, and will always be
subservient to, rather than masters of, time. It's a cyclic event,
like time itself and Jobst's refusal to admit he does not understand
either how a bicycle wheel works or how to solder a tied joint within
a bicycle wheel for its benefit.
It does't appear there was any wheel tested 'for' the book. It
appears that *if* a wheel was tested, the results were not included
because they 'failed' to confirm his 'conclusions' brought about
because he never bothered to understand a soldered joint or to learn
to solder. He tells us if we are to solder, to use copper wire and
rosin cored solder. This is only to ensure the reader makes an
inadequate joint, so that Jobst revelations can still be held up
high. A backward man.
TJ
  #78  
Old March 15th 09, 09:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nick L Plate
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,114
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On 8 Mar, 16:38, jim beam wrote:
A Muzi wrote:


A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.


no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. *clean, tight, works
perfectly.


Do you finish your ties by drawing between the spokes allowing them to
pinch the binding? And then a 3/4 wrap round one spoke?

TJ
  #79  
Old March 16th 09, 04:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On Mar 8, 12:38*pm, jim beam wrote:
A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. *For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. *Also copper plated wire.


A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.


no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. *clean, tight, works
perfectly.



This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the
solder should not adhere to the spoke itself.


yes it should.

You can't readily solder
to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and
at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also
more heat than is needed.


not true. *use acid plumber flux. *wash with bicarbonate after.



We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps
get washed to remove any flux residue.


if you used the right flux, you could use the right wire!





Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the
look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli
without tied spokes?- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Will this flux work with both stainless wire and spokes?

Steve
  #80  
Old March 17th 09, 02:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_4_]
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Posts: 318
Default Tin plated wire for binding spokes

wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:38�pm, jim beam wrote:
A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. �For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. �Also copper plated wire.
A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.

no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. �clean, tight, works
perfectly.



This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the
solder should not adhere to the spoke itself.

yes it should.

You can't readily solder
to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and
at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also
more heat than is needed.

not true. �use acid plumber flux. �wash with bicarbonate after.



We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps
get washed to remove any flux residue.

if you used the right flux, you could use the right wire!





Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the
look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli
without tied spokes?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Will this flux work with both stainless wire and spokes?

Steve



yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_ch...llurgical_flux

http://www.superiorflux.com/sold_soft.html

 




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