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#71
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On 13 Mar, 20:41, "Clive George" wrote:
"Nick L Plate" wrote in ... The reduction of tension in the bottom spokes will leave some wheels with inadequate lateral stability, only testable at the bottom of the wheel. Would those wheels be ones where the spokes had inadequate tension in the first place? This is precicely how inadequate tension presents. Wheels with excessive tension may have difficulty surviving the test as any appreciable side load will encourage buckling with such a wheel. Spoke gauge, count, and installation also play their role with radial,lateral and torsional stiffness. TJ |
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#73
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On 14 Mar, 01:06, jim beam wrote:
wrote: Trevor Jeffrey wrote: So now we know. *From the evidence of the book, he did not test any Tied and soldered wheels. The wheels that Jobst tested were tied and soldered by Rik Hjertberg of WheelSmith when his shop was in Palo Alto. It does not say this in the book, how do you know this? I've described the sequence of event often in years past here on wreck.bike. *It isn't a secret. *Besides, I have no skill or wire for tied and soldered wheels and I wanted an impartial expert to do the job. If you know this to be tru, perhaps you could enlighten me, to what standard were the wheels constructed. To the tension and trueness that Wheelsmith built them, using my tensiometer as a guide. *http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/sh...122&cat=500&si... That's Rik's hand in the picture. er. jobst, that's not the wheel you tested for your book. *and your tensiometer doesn't account for spoke stiffness - kind of a problem dontcherknow. The way you question this seems to assume nothing is true but is generated from contributors imagination. *I sense that this may be true for some writers in this newsgroup. so why would we accept as "true" the writings of a guy that can't follow scientific method, doesn't educate himself sufficiently for his proposed expertise, and presents presumption and underinformed guesswork as fact? * oh, and who cites non-contemporaneous material as evidence??? It seems that this Rick at Wheelsmith does not double tie his spokes and does not use steel wire but 28 gauge copper wire as I had assumed. He does not shape the spokes at the crossings and only uses a short contact time with an 80 watt electric iron, so it is unlikely that any accidental shaping could take place. So it would be more than likely that there would be little if any advantage to this method of tying the spokes. There is also no method of testing the joint. I don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable to asses its suitability, a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong' solder. The information on his soldering methods can be found at wheelfanatyk . Rik's work may look pretty, but it wont do the job. The correct way is: Steel wire, tightly bound + 60/40 lead/tin solder at two crossings with the removal of spoke bows by kinking at the crossing(s). Then re-balance tension in spokes. TJ |
#74
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate wrote:
I don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable to asses its suitability, a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong' solder. The information on his soldering methods can be found at wheelfanatyk . Of all common forms of solder, tin-lead is at or near the bottom of the table for strength, and I suspect (given its high elongation) for creep. Typical values for yield strength are around 4000 psi - much less than the various tin-silver-bismuth-(copper/indium/zinc) solders at over 10,000 psi and totally dwarfed by a true silver-solder which will have yield strength over 50,000 psi. "Stay-Brite" appears to be one of the low-silver solder alloys - just under 4% silver ("Stay-Brite-8 is 5%) and the remainder tin; tensile strength for both is given as 14,000 psi. While the eutectic form of tin-lead solder (60/40 as in the post above is close) does have the greatest strength of the various tin-lead alloys, it is disingenuous at best to describe it as "strong". And in passing, I also would like to see a photo posted of one of those "kinked" spokes - preferably by someone other than the poster above; we don't want a repeat of the "jim beam" broken brake-bolt fabrication, do we... |
#75
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On 14 Mar, 12:48, _
wrote: On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate wrote: I don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable to asses its suitability, *a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong' solder. *The information on his soldering methods can be found at wheelfanatyk . Of all common forms of solder, tin-lead is at or near the bottom of the table for strength, and I suspect (given its high elongation) for creep. Typical values for yield strength are around 4000 psi - much less than the various tin-silver-bismuth-(copper/indium/zinc) solders at over 10,000 psi and totally dwarfed by a true silver-solder which will have yield strength over 50,000 psi. "Stay-Brite" appears to be one of the low-silver solder alloys - just under 4% silver ("Stay-Brite-8 is 5%) and the remainder tin; tensile strength for both is given as 14,000 psi. While the eutectic form of tin-lead solder (60/40 as in the post above is close) does have the greatest strength of the various tin-lead alloys, it is disingenuous at best to describe it as "strong". And in passing, I also would like to see a photo posted of one of those "kinked" spokes - preferably by someone other than the poster above; we don't want a repeat of the "jim beam" broken brake-bolt fabrication, do we... The 60/40 solder is strong and economical within the tin/lead range. I will use hydrochloric acid( needs zinc added to it first) as a flux to enable the bonding with a zinc plated spoke (unless someone can give me their view on alternative flux). It appears you do not know the tensile strength of 60/40 tin lead. It does not matter as it's the shear strength which is important in a solder joint. This is why 'tensile strength' quotes are irrelevant. Some of the zinc will be taken up by the solder and alter the joints structure anyway. Best to stick to what I know will bond and have joint integrity than use a mix with a quoted 'tensile strength' which alters according to the metal it is alloying with. With a steel binding tightly wound, the parting stress at the second joint from the rim will be taken by the stiffer steel than by the solder. The sliding joint nearest the rim will be bound tightly with eight turns of wire. There should be sufficient solder within the 0.002 to 0.006" range of the joint to resist the continually differing tensions within the spokes. I'm just having some problems with nicking of the binding wire, resulting in snapping upon tensioning, so I will grind of the sharp edge of my new pointy pliers (radio pliers copy). I bought these new pliers because I was nicked by the joint of my genuine radio pliers and these new ones have moulded handles and have slightly longer jaws easing thier use. I dont expect them to last too long, if they work out good, I'll reserve them for this work only. The amount of wheelbuilds I intend doing, they'll last a long time even if they are junk. I'm not the only person to kink the spokes for a better wheel build who has posted here. The more usual quick method is to use a screwdriver blade at the hub end of the joint and twist the other end with some timber. This can leave a bow in the other direction between the joint and the rim. I press the spokes into shape with the spokes and nipples installed but still loose, using my fingers/thumbs and a metal 'thimble', which is currently my Cylclo mini nipple key. This leaves the rest of the spoke straight. It is a little more difficult to do with stainless steel, even in a thinner gauge than with low/ medium carbon steel spokes, the carbon steel is more malleable. TJ |
#76
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
_ wrote:
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate wrote: I don't know the composition of 'Sta-brite' silver solder so am unable to asses its suitability, a 60/40 tin/lead is the usual 'strong' solder. The information on his soldering methods can be found at wheelfanatyk . Of all common forms of solder, tin-lead is at or near the bottom of the table for strength, and I suspect (given its high elongation) for creep. Typical values for yield strength are around 4000 psi - much less than the various tin-silver-bismuth-(copper/indium/zinc) solders at over 10,000 psi and totally dwarfed by a true silver-solder which will have yield strength over 50,000 psi. "Stay-Brite" appears to be one of the low-silver solder alloys - just under 4% silver ("Stay-Brite-8 is 5%) and the remainder tin; tensile strength for both is given as 14,000 psi. While the eutectic form of tin-lead solder (60/40 as in the post above is close) does have the greatest strength of the various tin-lead alloys, it is disingenuous at best to describe it as "strong". i wouldn't call it "disingenuous", but you're right, it's not strong. however, it doesn't need to be so you're being an idiot trying to make a big deal about it. all it has to do is lock the wires together and prevent sliding - that's not a high strength requirement. you'd have figured that out if you were thinking about the application, not simply about arguing. And in passing, I also would like to see a photo posted of one of those "kinked" spokes - preferably by someone other than the poster above; we don't want a repeat of the "jim beam" broken brake-bolt fabrication, do we... somebody's evidently very bored this morning. but i'm game - "**** you jtaylor and be man enough to belly up to facts that contradict you." is that going to oblige you? idiot dweeb. |
#77
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On 14 Mar, 01:06, jim beam wrote:
wrote: Trevor Jeffrey wrote: So now we know. *From the evidence of the book, he did not test any Tied and soldered wheels. The wheels that Jobst tested were tied and soldered by Rik Hjertberg of WheelSmith when his shop was in Palo Alto. It does not say this in the book, how do you know this? I've described the sequence of event often in years past here on wreck.bike. *It isn't a secret. *Besides, I have no skill or wire for tied and soldered wheels and I wanted an impartial expert to do the job. If you know this to be tru, perhaps you could enlighten me, to what standard were the wheels constructed. To the tension and trueness that Wheelsmith built them, using my tensiometer as a guide. *http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/sh...122&cat=500&si... That's Rik's hand in the picture. er. jobst, that's not the wheel you tested for your book. *and your tensiometer doesn't account for spoke stiffness - kind of a problem dontcherknow. Its a modern photo of a gauge manufactured after the publication of the book. He has been working on a time machine, dont you know. He only needs to convince a few billion people that time really is running backwards, and the creation is yet to come. Darwin was right within his time, which even he didn'tt know, is still yet to happen. It is simple really. The big bang as modern physicists call it, is really the apocalypse yet to come, only we see it as history because we really dont know how time works and its all bent all over the place anyway and exists all at once in different places and sequentially in one place. It runs backwards and forwards and stands still on its spokes which are bound by the ties of memory and soldered by records. So we're all materialising from our devolved state and will become as god created us in the future 28 million years ago. Without mastering of time, we cannot master the recording of time, and will always be subservient to, rather than masters of, time. It's a cyclic event, like time itself and Jobst's refusal to admit he does not understand either how a bicycle wheel works or how to solder a tied joint within a bicycle wheel for its benefit. It does't appear there was any wheel tested 'for' the book. It appears that *if* a wheel was tested, the results were not included because they 'failed' to confirm his 'conclusions' brought about because he never bothered to understand a soldered joint or to learn to solder. He tells us if we are to solder, to use copper wire and rosin cored solder. This is only to ensure the reader makes an inadequate joint, so that Jobst revelations can still be held up high. A backward man. TJ |
#78
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On 8 Mar, 16:38, jim beam wrote:
A Muzi wrote: A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away. no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. *clean, tight, works perfectly. Do you finish your ties by drawing between the spokes allowing them to pinch the binding? And then a 3/4 wrap round one spoke? TJ |
#79
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
On Mar 8, 12:38*pm, jim beam wrote:
A Muzi wrote: Nick L Plate wrote: Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. *For use on zinc plated, chrome or stainless spokes. *Also copper plated wire. A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away. no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. *clean, tight, works perfectly. This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the solder should not adhere to the spoke itself. yes it should. You can't readily solder to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also more heat than is needed. not true. *use acid plumber flux. *wash with bicarbonate after. We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps get washed to remove any flux residue. if you used the right flux, you could use the right wire! Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli without tied spokes?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Will this flux work with both stainless wire and spokes? Steve |
#80
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Tin plated wire for binding spokes
wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:38�pm, jim beam wrote: A Muzi wrote: Nick L Plate wrote: Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. �For use on zinc plated, chrome or stainless spokes. �Also copper plated wire. A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away. no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. �clean, tight, works perfectly. This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the solder should not adhere to the spoke itself. yes it should. You can't readily solder to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also more heat than is needed. not true. �use acid plumber flux. �wash with bicarbonate after. We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps get washed to remove any flux residue. if you used the right flux, you could use the right wire! Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli without tied spokes?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Will this flux work with both stainless wire and spokes? Steve yup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_ch...llurgical_flux http://www.superiorflux.com/sold_soft.html |
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