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Ouch. This happened to me once



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 19th 18, 03:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,671
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen
delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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  #2  
Old February 19th 18, 04:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,182
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept. Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn
signal blinking?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #3  
Old February 19th 18, 04:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,671
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 10:21 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian
Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the
collision!

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right
hook. Over there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a
common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.
Under what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring
lane be placed between the curb and a lane where turns are
permitted? And when would a motorist think it's safe to
"undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn signal
blinking?


Not mirror in my case; he pulled right with right blinker
on, then suddenly decided on a left U-turn as I passed.
Fortunately there were witnesses.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #4  
Old February 19th 18, 04:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,434
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that the
driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault of
the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees
some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does
get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed
on the brake pedal.


In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.



Baloney.


... Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn
signal blinking?


I have witnessed a few such accidents. _All_ of them sans bike lane.
Most of them were of the kind "Oh, dang! I have to turn right here". I
had a close call myself while taking the lane. A Porsche driver thought
it was a good idea to speed past me on the lane left of me and then turn
right into a parking lot. Luckily I was on the MTB with powerful disc
brakes. Maybe the guy didn't think a MTB could be doing north of 20mph.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #5  
Old February 19th 18, 05:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,182
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:21 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html


(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian
Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the
collision!

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right
hook. Over there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a
common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.
Under what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring
lane be placed between the curb and a lane where turns are
permitted? And when would a motorist think it's safe to
"undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn signal
blinking?


Not mirror in my case; he pulled right with right blinker on, then
suddenly decided on a left U-turn as I passed. Fortunately there were
witnesses.


Ah. Most American drivers don't understand what that stick thing is, the
one just past the left side of their steering wheel. You encountered one
who was even worse than average.

I liked this instructional video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFHCyNVBTk

I like the "pretty incredible" and "but it may require you to put down
your coffee"

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #6  
Old February 19th 18, 05:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,182
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 11:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html


(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that the
driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault of
the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees
some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does
get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed
on the brake pedal.


It depends. The most deadly right hooks occur with large trucks and
buses. Those vehicles have huge blind spots, not "may not notice" spots.
If your light can't be seen (which is very typical in such situations)
it can't help.

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.


Baloney.


So let me ask again:

************************* ************************* * ...* Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn
signal blinking?


In other words, who would design an equivalent lane stripe for a motor
vehicle? Not even the most incompetent highway designer. Yet American
bike advocates lobby for such nonsense until the politicians cave in.

I have witnessed a few such accidents. _All_ of them sans bike lane.


And doubtlessly, almost all of them edge riders.

Most of them were of the kind "Oh, dang! I have to turn right here". I
had a close call myself while taking the lane. A Porsche driver thought
it was a good idea to speed past me on the lane left of me and then turn
right into a parking lot. Luckily I was on the MTB with powerful disc
brakes. Maybe the guy didn't think a MTB could be doing north of 20mph.


I can recall only two sort-of-close-call attempted right hooks while I
was taking the lane. In both cases they started to pass me on my left
then realized they couldn't make it as I held my position and glared at
them. They both dropped back.

One was within a couple blocks of my office at the university. The
perpetrator was a young kid trying to cross my path into the right turn
lane. (I was in the right "straight ahead" lane.) He was even more
confused than the guy described above, because he tried to pass, then
dropped back, then tried to pass again, then almost stopped before
merging right properly from behind me.

We ended up side by side at the light. I looked over at him and said
"You're new at this, aren't you?" He just glared straight ahead until
the light changed.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #7  
Old February 19th 18, 06:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 268
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 5:42:12 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that the
driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault of
the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that.



That was my first thought also. If you are riding at that speed in traffic you better watch out and prepared for the worst.

Lou
  #8  
Old February 19th 18, 06:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,434
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-19 09:53, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 11:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html


(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)

How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that
the driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault
of the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply
ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver
sees some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that
does get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they
slammed on the brake pedal.


It depends. The most deadly right hooks occur with large trucks and
buses. Those vehicles have huge blind spots, not "may not notice" spots.
If your light can't be seen (which is very typical in such situations)
it can't help.


On poorly equipped trucks, yes. Others, not so much. Check the lower
round mirror he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6qe58RY0k

Modern trucks have dual panel mirrors where this is more integrated.
Very modern ones have cameras. Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the
right unless I have established an acknowledged visual contact with the
driver.


In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.


Baloney.


So let me ask again:

... Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn
signal blinking?


In other words, who would design an equivalent lane stripe for a motor
vehicle? Not even the most incompetent highway designer. Yet American
bike advocates lobby for such nonsense until the politicians cave in.


They generally don't. European ones sometimes do, they have to learn a
lot more. This is how it's done right:

https://goo.gl/maps/2spLh13Junn

If you virtually move along that road you will see that the bike lane
switches to the middle, in this case even across two right-turn lanes. I
nearly always have to go straight ahead there and despite coming through
there during rush hour never had a problem.


I have witnessed a few such accidents. _All_ of them sans bike lane.


And doubtlessly, almost all of them edge riders.


It's the law in most jurisdictions. Whether one of the exemption
situations applies is entirely up to the cop. In court the cop is nearly
always right. BTDT.


Most of them were of the kind "Oh, dang! I have to turn right here". I
had a close call myself while taking the lane. A Porsche driver
thought it was a good idea to speed past me on the lane left of me and
then turn right into a parking lot. Luckily I was on the MTB with
powerful disc brakes. Maybe the guy didn't think a MTB could be doing
north of 20mph.


I can recall only two sort-of-close-call attempted right hooks while I
was taking the lane. In both cases they started to pass me on my left
then realized they couldn't make it as I held my position and glared at
them. They both dropped back.

One was within a couple blocks of my office at the university. The
perpetrator was a young kid trying to cross my path into the right turn
lane. (I was in the right "straight ahead" lane.) He was even more
confused than the guy described above, because he tried to pass, then
dropped back, then tried to pass again, then almost stopped before
merging right properly from behind me.

We ended up side by side at the light. I looked over at him and said
"You're new at this, aren't you?" He just glared straight ahead until
the light changed.


I recently had a woman stare straight into my eyes and then turn into my
path. Couldn't believe it. Of course I gave her the drill sergeant
holler, the one that makes even large dogs cringe.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #9  
Old February 19th 18, 07:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,182
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 1:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 09:53, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 11:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html



(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)

How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that
the driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault
of the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply
ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver
sees some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that
does get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they
slammed on the brake pedal.


It depends. The most deadly right hooks occur with large trucks and
buses. Those vehicles have huge blind spots, not "may not notice" spots.
If your light can't be seen (which is very typical in such situations)
it can't help.


On poorly equipped trucks, yes. Others, not so much. Check the lower
round mirror he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6qe58RY0k

Modern trucks have dual panel mirrors where this is more integrated.


It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big
truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU

Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the
right unless I have established an acknowledged visual contact with the
driver.


But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the
cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision
type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London
a couple years ago.

So let me ask again:

************************* ************************* * ...* Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between
the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn
signal blinking?


In other words, who would design an equivalent lane stripe for a motor
vehicle? Not even the most incompetent highway designer. Yet American
bike advocates lobby for such nonsense until the politicians cave in.


They generally don't. European ones sometimes do, they have to learn a
lot more. This is how it's done right:

https://goo.gl/maps/2spLh13Junn

If you virtually move along that road you will see that the bike lane
switches to the middle, in this case even across two right-turn lanes. I
nearly always have to go straight ahead there and despite coming through
there during rush hour never had a problem.


Joerg, there absolutely are advocacy groups lobbying for bike lanes on
_all_ streets, and wanting them to the far right for protection. They
even lobby specifically for bike lanes in door zones. I know of two
cities in Ohio that caved into those demands.

I have witnessed a few such accidents. _All_ of them sans bike lane.


And doubtlessly, almost all of them edge riders.


It's the law in most jurisdictions. Whether one of the exemption
situations applies is entirely up to the cop. In court the cop is nearly
always right. BTDT.


I've tried without success to correct your ignorance of the laws. Yes,
there are some cops who are also ignorant, but that's why advocacy
groups should be working on education instead of demanding more
defective facilities. Education of cyclists, education of motorists and
education of law enforcement officials.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #10  
Old February 19th 18, 08:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,434
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 1:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 09:53, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 11:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html



(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)

How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that
the driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault
of the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply
ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver
sees some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that
does get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they
slammed on the brake pedal.

It depends. The most deadly right hooks occur with large trucks and
buses. Those vehicles have huge blind spots, not "may not notice" spots.
If your light can't be seen (which is very typical in such situations)
it can't help.


On poorly equipped trucks, yes. Others, not so much. Check the lower
round mirror he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6qe58RY0k

Modern trucks have dual panel mirrors where this is more integrated.


It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big
truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU



a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by a
truck in that configuration.

b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly.

Duh!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU


Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so
drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then.


Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have
established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver.


But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the
cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision
type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London
a couple years ago.


A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That
cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible turn
signal yet he ignored it.

This is how most right-hook bike path accidents happen in Germany and
other countries. I have seen it personally where people just blow
through intersections without as much as a look to the left, assuming
they ride in "their" space. I don't, I am always looking out and
consequently never had a critical situation or crash with a motor
vehicle while on the bike path. I did have numerous on the road and none
was my fault. Well, except a minor one where I rear-ended a car because
the front brake cable snapped. That can happen.

This was over more than 60000 miles, much of that in bike path country
(Netherlands).


So let me ask again:

... Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed
between the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn
signal blinking?

In other words, who would design an equivalent lane stripe for a motor
vehicle? Not even the most incompetent highway designer. Yet American
bike advocates lobby for such nonsense until the politicians cave in.


They generally don't. European ones sometimes do, they have to learn a
lot more. This is how it's done right:

https://goo.gl/maps/2spLh13Junn

If you virtually move along that road you will see that the bike lane
switches to the middle, in this case even across two right-turn lanes.
I nearly always have to go straight ahead there and despite coming
through there during rush hour never had a problem.


Joerg, there absolutely are advocacy groups lobbying for bike lanes on
_all_ streets, and wanting them to the far right for protection. They
even lobby specifically for bike lanes in door zones. I know of two
cities in Ohio that caved into those demands.


Got links for those groups where they explicitly advocate that?

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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