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Ouch. This happened to me once



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 19th 18, 09:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,163
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big
truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these
videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU


a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by a
truck in that configuration.

b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly.

Duh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU


Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so
drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then.


So what message will you give to cyclists? "If you think the truck
mirrors are adjusted correctly and if you like the design of the
windows, you should pass at speed on the curb side"?? That's nonsense.

And regarding the turning: in the incident Andrew linked a week or so
ago, the truck was turned _the other way_ before it turned right and
killed the cyclist.


Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have
established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver.


But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the
cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision
type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London
a couple years ago.


A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That
cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible turn
signal yet he ignored it.


You may say you know that. But it should be obvious even to you that
many, many cyclists do NOT know that. The dominant messages need to
change from "Now you have a safe place to ride" and "Always wear your
helmet." Cyclists need to hear "Even a 'protected' bike lane won't
protect you" and "Learn to anticipate and avoid these hazards..." with
right hooks, left crosses and pull-outs being the most important, after
road hazards. Those are among the top crash causes, far more than the
hits-from-behind feared by bike lane advocates like yourself.

Bike lanes do not help any of those crash mechanisms. If anything, they
make them worse.

Joerg, there absolutely are advocacy groups lobbying for bike lanes on
_all_ streets, and wanting them to the far right for protection. They
even lobby specifically for bike lanes in door zones. I know of two
cities in Ohio that caved into those demands.


Got links for those groups where they explicitly advocate that?


I don't have links for the groups advocating that, but here's a link
about one of the results. Read the article, then read the comments,
especially the first.

http://www.cleveland.com/lakewood/in...nes_to_ma.html

Lakewood originally planned for sharrows on lots of the narrow streets
with parking. "Bike advocates" fought that idea and overturned it,
getting the city to instead put in bike lanes even though they were very
frequently in door zones. IIRC, it's Lakewood that labeled some of its
door zone bike lanes with "Door Zone" painted on the pavement. Their
safety guide says only "use caution" there - as if even a 10 mph cyclist
can stop before running into a door that popped open.

http://blog.centurycycles.com/2017/0...ike-lanes.html



--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #12  
Old February 19th 18, 09:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 9:32:40 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen
delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Again a demonstration that the car always wins.

Andy
  #13  
Old February 19th 18, 09:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,641
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 11:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 11:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html


(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian
Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)

How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the
collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have.
It is not wise to blow past a car when its turn signal
clearly indicates that the driver intends to turn into
your path. While it is still the fault of the car driver I
do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a
car driver sees some really bright light in the rear view
and outside mirror that does get their attention.
Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed on the
brake pedal.


It depends. The most deadly right hooks occur with large
trucks and buses. Those vehicles have huge blind spots, not
"may not notice" spots. If your light can't be seen (which
is very typical in such situations) it can't help.

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right
hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common
collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.


Baloney.


So let me ask again:


... Under what
circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be
placed between the
curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would
a motorist
think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle
has its turn
signal blinking?


In other words, who would design an equivalent lane stripe
for a motor vehicle? Not even the most incompetent highway
designer. Yet American bike advocates lobby for such
nonsense until the politicians cave in.

I have witnessed a few such accidents. _All_ of them sans
bike lane.


And doubtlessly, almost all of them edge riders.

Most of them were of the kind "Oh, dang! I have to turn
right here". I had a close call myself while taking the
lane. A Porsche driver thought it was a good idea to speed
past me on the lane left of me and then turn right into a
parking lot. Luckily I was on the MTB with powerful disc
brakes. Maybe the guy didn't think a MTB could be doing
north of 20mph.


I can recall only two sort-of-close-call attempted right
hooks while I was taking the lane. In both cases they
started to pass me on my left then realized they couldn't
make it as I held my position and glared at them. They both
dropped back.

One was within a couple blocks of my office at the
university. The perpetrator was a young kid trying to cross
my path into the right turn lane. (I was in the right
"straight ahead" lane.) He was even more confused than the
guy described above, because he tried to pass, then dropped
back, then tried to pass again, then almost stopped before
merging right properly from behind me.

We ended up side by side at the light. I looked over at him
and said "You're new at this, aren't you?" He just glared
straight ahead until the light changed.



In the modern world, that ends with a headline, "shots fired
in road rage incident"

https://www.channel3000.com/news/del...-say/703673624

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old February 19th 18, 09:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,641
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 3:34 PM, Andy wrote:
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 9:32:40 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen
delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Again a demonstration that the car always wins.


Always?
My employee blew a red light at high speed, fixed gear, and
smashed into the side of a car with his shoulder. He & bike
were fine but he was ticketed and had to pay the car owner's
body work bills.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #15  
Old February 19th 18, 10:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,411
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-19 13:42, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2018 3:34 PM, Andy wrote:
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 9:32:40 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html


(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen
delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Again a demonstration that the car always wins.


Always?
My employee blew a red light at high speed, fixed gear, and smashed into
the side of a car with his shoulder. He & bike were fine but he was
ticketed and had to pay the car owner's body work bills.


In the 80's a guy in a Volkswagen Polo (was called Fox in the US) pulled
through a stop sign, me on the bike at full bore. Couldn't stop, dropped
myself a bit behind the handlebar in an attempt not to sail over the
roof ... BAM. My bike was pretzeled and I was bruised but no broken
bones. The guy tried to get out but the driver side door into which I
had smashed but it could no longer be opened from inside. He was elderly
and couldn't climb over the stick. So I pulled hard and then it opened
with a crunching sound.

I couldn't bring myself to make him pay for the old 2nd hand road bike.
He was over 70, had just bought this VW as the first brand-new car in
his life and now the left side was smashed in. He was close to crying.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #16  
Old February 19th 18, 10:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,411
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-19 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big
truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these
videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU


a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by
a truck in that configuration.

b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly.

Duh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU


Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so
drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then.


So what message will you give to cyclists? "If you think the truck
mirrors are adjusted correctly and if you like the design of the
windows, you should pass at speed on the curb side"?? That's nonsense.


Can you please read more carefully? That is not what I said. Read the
thread again, I am not going to repeat it over and over again.


And regarding the turning: in the incident Andrew linked a week or so
ago, the truck was turned _the other way_ before it turned right and
killed the cyclist.


That would be a serious truck driver mistake. Those things shouldn't
happen but do, just like people blowing a red light. I had that a while
ago while on the bicycle. Luckily I always look left and right even if I
had green for a while. Might have saved my life.


Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have
established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver.

But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the
cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision
type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London
a couple years ago.


A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That
cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible
turn signal yet he ignored it.


You may say you know that. But it should be obvious even to you that
many, many cyclists do NOT know that.



Then they have no place on a bicycle in traffic.


... The dominant messages need to
change from "Now you have a safe place to ride" and "Always wear your
helmet." Cyclists need to hear "Even a 'protected' bike lane won't
protect you" and "Learn to anticipate and avoid these hazards..." with
right hooks, left crosses and pull-outs being the most important, after
road hazards. Those are among the top crash causes, far more than the
hits-from-behind feared by bike lane advocates like yourself.

Bike lanes do not help any of those crash mechanisms. If anything, they
make them worse.


Bike lanes do not make all mechanisms better but they do make a major
one a lot better: Give the cyclist space during normal straight-ahead
riding. Very few motorists venture into the bike lane while passing.
Wehn in the lane regardless of lane position that is a very different
story. So a road with bike lanes is better than one without.

Segregated bike paths are way better than any of that but we can't
always have them.


Joerg, there absolutely are advocacy groups lobbying for bike lanes on
_all_ streets, and wanting them to the far right for protection. They
even lobby specifically for bike lanes in door zones. I know of two
cities in Ohio that caved into those demands.


Got links for those groups where they explicitly advocate that?


I don't have links for the groups advocating that, ...



Thought so :-)


... but here's a link
about one of the results. Read the article, then read the comments,
especially the first.

http://www.cleveland.com/lakewood/in...nes_to_ma.html


Just says "Workers are painting bike lanes along the 2.4-mile stretch of
Madison Avenue in Lakewood. Bike lanes were added as part of a
resurfacing project". No picture.


Lakewood originally planned for sharrows on lots of the narrow streets
with parking. "Bike advocates" fought that idea and overturned it,
getting the city to instead put in bike lanes even though they were very
frequently in door zones. IIRC, it's Lakewood that labeled some of its
door zone bike lanes with "Door Zone" painted on the pavement. Their
safety guide says only "use caution" there - as if even a 10 mph cyclist
can stop before running into a door that popped open.

http://blog.centurycycles.com/2017/0...ike-lanes.html


Not a smart bike lane design. They could learn from cities such as
Folsom. That is not to say that all bike facilities there are perfect
but most are well designed. Sometimes they go over the top like he

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Bikelane1.JPG

Yes, that is my two-meter foldable ruler on the pavement.

What I found to work well in situations like the right sketch in your
2nd link is to move closer to the left limit of the bike lane. That
signals car drivers that I am planning to go straight ahead. Usually
only rowdies ignore that and cut me off, on purpose. They do that
regardless of whether there is a bike lane of not. The others try to
gauge my speed and then either pass and turn or line up behind me. If
someone messes up and apologizes, no big deal.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #17  
Old February 20th 18, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,163
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 5:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a
big
truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these
videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU

a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by
a truck in that configuration.

b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly.

Duh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU


Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so
drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then.


So what message will you give to cyclists? "If you think the truck
mirrors are adjusted correctly and if you like the design of the
windows, you should pass at speed on the curb side"?? That's nonsense.


Can you please read more carefully? That is not what I said. Read the
thread again, I am not going to repeat it over and over again.


And regarding the turning: in the incident Andrew linked a week or so
ago, the truck was turned _the other way_ before it turned right and
killed the cyclist.


That would be a serious truck driver mistake. Those things shouldn't
happen but do, just like people blowing a red light. I had that a while
ago while on the bicycle. Luckily I always look left and right even if I
had green for a while. Might have saved my life.


Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have
established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver.

But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the
cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision
type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in
London
a couple years ago.


A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That
cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible
turn signal yet he ignored it.


You may say you know that. But it should be obvious even to you that
many, many cyclists do NOT know that.



Then they have no place on a bicycle in traffic.


But what is the solution? There is very little effort expended to
teaching cyclists how to operate competently in traffic. Instead, the
major lobbying efforts are all about building facilities that will make
bicycling safe for anyone "8 to 80." The implication is that nobody will
have to know anything. They'll just toddle along in segregated
facilities and all will be beautiful.

But it won't. The "protected cycle tracks" those people lobby for lose
all protection at every intersection; yet the cyclists are told they are
safe, safe, safe - so of course, no need to look for the motorists who
turn across the cyclist's path because the cyclists are hidden from
view. No need to be aware that half the cyclists are riding opposite the
normal direction of traffic, entering the intersection from a
"Surprise!!" direction or location.

Even the simple stripe of paint tells cyclists they can relax, when just
the opposite is true. They now have to try to watch for opening car
doors, plus extra debris on the road, plus motorists not noticing them
and cutting across their path from behind or from ahead or from driveways.

And why? Because they are afraid of being run down from behind. They are
increasing the likelihood of about 95% of car-bike crashes, by hoping to
reduce 5%. It's nuts.

Let me add: Honestly, I'm not against all bike facilities. Even
barrier-segregated cycle tracks can be appropriate in places with high
vehicle speeds and no intersections. But this stuff is being pushed
within cities with countless intersections, driveways, parked cars etc.
And all because "If we build it they will come."

I remain astonished that public policy is being driven by a feel-good movie.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #18  
Old February 20th 18, 12:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,641
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 6:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 5:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:


-buncha snip-

I remain astonished that public policy is being driven by a
feel-good movie.



Not just regarding bicycles. Try reading the papers once in
a while.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old February 20th 18, 01:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:43:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/19/2018 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:21 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html


(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian
Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.)

How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the
collision!

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right
hook. Over there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a
common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept.
Under what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring
lane be placed between the curb and a lane where turns are
permitted? And when would a motorist think it's safe to
"undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn signal
blinking?


Not mirror in my case; he pulled right with right blinker on, then
suddenly decided on a left U-turn as I passed. Fortunately there were
witnesses.


Ah. Most American drivers don't understand what that stick thing is, the
one just past the left side of their steering wheel. You encountered one
who was even worse than average.

I liked this instructional video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFHCyNVBTk

I like the "pretty incredible" and "but it may require you to put down
your coffee"


But he never mentioned bright, flashing, Daylight Driving Lights.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #20  
Old February 20th 18, 01:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:42:11 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!


The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not
wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that the
driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault of
the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that.

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees
some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does
get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed
on the brake pedal.


I knew it. If the bike had only had them super powerful daylight
driving lights on it they would have been safe.


--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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