Taking the lane, roundabout version

More benefits of being visible, at lane center:

A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem
to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by
motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the
roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the
center of the roundabout. (They're talking about single-lane
roundabouts, I'm sure.)

The abstract link came from a friend in Oz. Full disclosu I haven't
yet read the paper itself.

https://www.onlinepublications.austr...ems/AP-R461-14

In France, we bicycled (and drove) through many, many roundabouts
without problems. Only in Troyes did we see bike lanes painted in the
outer edge of roundabouts. Troyes also had many other hare-brained
"innovative" bike facilities. I'm sure the town was very proud of them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 23, 2014 6:10:42 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
More benefits of being visible, at lane center:



A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem

to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by

motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the

roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the

center of the roundabout. (They're talking about single-lane

roundabouts, I'm sure.)



The abstract link came from a friend in Oz. Full disclosu I haven't

yet read the paper itself.



https://www.onlinepublications.austr...ems/AP-R461-14



In France, we bicycled (and drove) through many, many roundabouts

without problems. Only in Troyes did we see bike lanes painted in the

outer edge of roundabouts. Troyes also had many other hare-brained

"innovative" bike facilities. I'm sure the town was very proud of them.



--

- Frank Krygowski

Common knowledge around her. Once had a discussion with a police officer about the fact that I took the round about like a car. I invited her to watch the round about for a while and count the cars that would squeeze a cyclist against the curb while entering and how many cars forget to signal leaving the round about. After just a couple of minutes she understood what I was talking about but her argument was that if anybody would do that it would cause chaos. Drivers get ****ed from time to time though.

Lou

On 5/23/2014 3:07 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Friday, May 23, 2014 6:10:42 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
More benefits of being visible, at lane center:



A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem

to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by

motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the

roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the

center of the roundabout. (They're talking about single-lane

roundabouts, I'm sure.)



The abstract link came from a friend in Oz. Full disclosu I haven't

yet read the paper itself.



https://www.onlinepublications.austr...ems/AP-R461-14



In France, we bicycled (and drove) through many, many roundabouts

without problems. Only in Troyes did we see bike lanes painted in the

outer edge of roundabouts. Troyes also had many other hare-brained

"innovative" bike facilities. I'm sure the town was very proud of them.



--

- Frank Krygowski

Common knowledge around her. Once had a discussion with a police officer about the fact that I took the round about like a car. I invited her to watch the round about for a while and count the cars that would squeeze a cyclist against the curb while entering and how many cars forget to signal leaving the round about. After just a couple of minutes she understood what I was talking about but her argument was that if anybody would do that it would cause chaos. Drivers get ****ed from time to time though.


Agreed, not a good place for a bike lane. But then again, I think
taking the lane in a rotary/roundabout/traffic circle probably has a lot
to do with the speed and density of the traffic.

I use one on my commute but it's smallish and single laned. Still, with
cars entering at speed in 4 places (one exiting from a highway) it can
be dicey pulling in front of them. I preferred the 4 corner stop that
was there before they installed this.

There are a couple around Boston that I would not consider trying. One
around Arlington that I remember pretty well. I don't consider this a
bike friendly environment. It's intended to move traffic more quickly
rather than calming it I think.

Per Frank Krygowski:
A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem
to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by
motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the
roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the
center of the roundabout.

Most of the close calls I have had were because I was too far over
towards the shoulder, tempting somebody to pass in an unsafe manner.

I think it was Frank that clued me in to that.

Doesn't me any less reluctant to mix it up with motor vehicles, but when
I have to, now I know not to get so far over as to tempt somebody to
pass unsafely.

Something else that nobody seems to talk about: some drivers have no
clue where their right wheels are.

I ride with one on occasion and they're constantly running through
potholes that are well on the shoulder and curbing their tires. I
think you definitely do *not* want to try to share the road with that
particular person.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 5/23/2014 3:39 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Frank Krygowski:
A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem
to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by
motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the
roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the
center of the roundabout.

Most of the close calls I have had were because I was too far over
towards the shoulder, tempting somebody to pass in an unsafe manner.

I think it was Frank that clued me in to that.

Doesn't me any less reluctant to mix it up with motor vehicles, but when
I have to, now I know not to get so far over as to tempt somebody to
pass unsafely.


Something else that nobody seems to talk about: some drivers have no
clue where their right wheels are.

I ride with one on occasion and they're constantly running through
potholes that are well on the shoulder and curbing their tires. I
think you definitely do *not* want to try to share the road with that
particular person.


Yeah Pete, well it'd be good if they had a flashing light on their nose
or something to let you know who they are. :-?

On 5/23/2014 2:34 PM, Duane wrote:
On 5/23/2014 3:07 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Friday, May 23, 2014 6:10:42 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
More benefits of being visible, at lane center:



A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in
roundabouts seem

to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and
aren't noticed by

motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well
before the

roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible
position, near the

center of the roundabout. (They're talking about
single-lane

roundabouts, I'm sure.)



The abstract link came from a friend in Oz. Full
disclosu I haven't

yet read the paper itself.



https://www.onlinepublications.austr...ems/AP-R461-14




In France, we bicycled (and drove) through many, many
roundabouts

without problems. Only in Troyes did we see bike lanes
painted in the

outer edge of roundabouts. Troyes also had many other
hare-brained

"innovative" bike facilities. I'm sure the town was very
proud of them.



--

- Frank Krygowski

Common knowledge around her. Once had a discussion with a
police officer about the fact that I took the round about
like a car. I invited her to watch the round about for a
while and count the cars that would squeeze a cyclist
against the curb while entering and how many cars forget
to signal leaving the round about. After just a couple of
minutes she understood what I was talking about but her
argument was that if anybody would do that it would cause
chaos. Drivers get ****ed from time to time though.


Agreed, not a good place for a bike lane. But then again, I
think taking the lane in a rotary/roundabout/traffic circle
probably has a lot to do with the speed and density of the
traffic.

I use one on my commute but it's smallish and single laned.
Still, with cars entering at speed in 4 places (one exiting
from a highway) it can be dicey pulling in front of them. I
preferred the 4 corner stop that was there before they
installed this.

There are a couple around Boston that I would not consider
trying. One around Arlington that I remember pretty well.
I don't consider this a bike friendly environment. It's
intended to move traffic more quickly rather than calming it
I think.


They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use
more land, everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the
'designers' get to feel smug about 'improving America'.

Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add
sculpture, stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the
middle so there are no clear sight lines.

I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the
damned pernicious things.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 23, 2014 8:49:29 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
On 5/23/2014 3:39 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

I ride with one on occasion and they're constantly running through

potholes that are well on the shoulder and curbing their tires. I

think you definitely do *not* want to try to share the road with that

particular person.


Yeah Pete, well it'd be good if they had a flashing light on their nose

or something to let you know who they are. :-?

Your common or garden U-lock does excellent duty as a hammer. You could try marking their cars, like cutting the ears of cattle so you know the rogues..

We have a couple of roundabouts and the one that is marked with a big roundel with a fountain on it is no hassle: you just ride well into the single wide lane and cars can choose to stay behind you or pass, the lane is that wide. It's the visual effect of the very visible roundabout, and the physical turn required to get around it, that calms the traffic to agreeble proportions.

It's the other, smaller one, just a circle painted on a wide road at a T-junction, that causes the problems. From behind the wheel a driver sees a wide, straight road, and doesn't slow, despite the fact that it is near the flashing amber lamp of a pedestrian crossing. The traffic moves so fast, taking the lane is difficult, and maintaining it dangerous if you start too far back, because cars will pass you on both sides, this being a very wide single lane in each direction. It's a nightmare because the cyclist, the most vulnerable negotiant in the mix, cannot know what to expect from any driver.. (Predictablilty as a prime determinant of both perceived and real security for the cyclist!) I used to live over the clinic just past this roundabout, and sometimes I'd talk to European cycle tourists who passed, and the Germans especially would wonder which incompetent created that roundabout. It was built as a "traffic-calming measure"; honest.

The lady pedal pals who lived nearby would ride on the sidewalk to the pedestrian crossing and use that, but I had some hair-raising experiences when I "did a Krygo" and stood on my rights as a road user. It was on that roundabout that I learned the difference between a British or Irish truck driver, and one from the Continent. The Paddy and the Brit will attempt to bully a cyclist with the pure beef of the truck, the Continental driver just slows and waits a decent distance back.

Andre Jute
There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in thy philosophies

On 5/23/2014 5:11 PM, AMuzi wrote about roundabouts:


They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land,
everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel
smug about 'improving America'.

Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture,
stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear
sight lines.

I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned
pernicious things.

Wow. I've found them to work really well. Besides the many we used in
France, there's an ancient one in one of my favorite "ride there for
lunch" towns, and they've just begun construction on the first one in my
county. It happens to be on the road that used to be my commuting route.

That last one is an intersection between two collector streets, each
with just two lanes. It now has a traffic light, but eastbound traffic
regularly backs up for three light cycles, corked by motorists wanting
to turn left.

North- or southbound traffic (the way I'd normally ride) gets loop
detectors to trigger a green. I've had to phone to get them adjusted to
detect my bike; and sometimes the loops failed due to being severed by
potholes.

I look forward to the roundabout. I think traffic flow will be much
better. And I've never liked stopping for a red light (car, motorcycle,
bike, whatever) when there's nobody using the other-direction green light.

Incidentally, one complaint I've heard is that roundabouts are more
difficult for blind or handicapped pedestrians. But that intersection
doesn't even have sidewalks, so if true, it may not be a problem there.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 24/05/14 07:11, AMuzi wrote:


They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land,
everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel
smug about 'improving America'.

Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture,
stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear
sight lines.

I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned
pernicious things.


Sounds like they are poorly designed, or you're not using them well.

I'm happy to ride through some here that have 3 roundabouts merged into
one ...

http://goo.gl/maps/SbhDO

--
Js

James wrote:
On 24/05/14 07:11, AMuzi wrote:


They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land,
everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel
smug about 'improving America'.

Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture,
stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear
sight lines.

I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned
pernicious things.


Sounds like they are poorly designed, or you're not using them well.

I'm happy to ride through some here that have 3 roundabouts merged into one ...

http://goo.gl/maps/SbhDO

Like I said I think it depends on the traffic speed and congestion. Having
them is series like that probably slows the cars down some.

--
duane