Why not "sand" tar stripes?

Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy just
a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a thrill to
those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been so tense,
having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar stripes
(while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't see where
sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing the cracks)
but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand, perhaps rough
the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long (the stripe would
get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes on a
motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any idea
how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy
just a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a
thrill to those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been
so tense, having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar
stripes (while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't
see where sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing
the cracks) but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand,
perhaps rough the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long
(the stripe would get worn down smooth after a while).

A good question. I can tell you the Brits don't, but the Germans do. It's so
simple and makes all the difference.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy
just a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a
thrill to those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been
so tense, having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar
stripes (while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't
see where sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing
the cracks) but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand,
perhaps rough the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long
(the stripe would get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes on
a motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any
idea how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

I dunno if that is a good idea or not. The parking lot at work has been
aggressively sanded by the facilities people and now that the snow/ice
has melted, it's still almost as hard to get traction as when it was
covered with the frozen stuff.

Now if you could ensure that it actually would be embedded in the tar,
I'd agree with you. Also perhaps next-generation reflective striping
paint could be evaluated not only for visibility but traction as well.
(of course, around here, roads are either striped with inferior paint or
too infrequently; at night in a heavy rainstorm the lines just kinda
disappear, making driving on an unfamiliar road a challenge.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy
just a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a
thrill to those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been
so tense, having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar
stripes (while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't
see where sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing
the cracks) but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand,
perhaps rough the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long
(the stripe would get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes on
a motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any
idea how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Around here (MA,USA) they sometimes sand them and sometimes not. I agree
it makes a big difference.

On 16 Jan, 20:21, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy just
a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a thrill to
those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been so tense,
having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar stripes
(while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't see where
sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing the cracks)
but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand, perhaps rough
the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long (the stripe would
get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes on a
motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any idea
how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Leaving the smooth strips is essential for the aquisition of
functioning body parts from enthusiastic M'cyclists. Policy in the
UK is unlikely to be changed while it remains illegal to sell body
parts. This is why knowledgable cyclists select fine patterned
treaded tyres.

On 16 Jan, 20:27, Nate Nagel wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy
just a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a
thrill to those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been
so tense, having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar
stripes (while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't
see where sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing
the cracks) but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand,
perhaps rough the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long
(the stripe would get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes on
a motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any
idea how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

I dunno if that is a good idea or not. *The parking lot at work has been
aggressively sanded by the facilities people and now that the snow/ice
has melted, it's still almost as hard to get traction as when it was
covered with the frozen stuff.

Now if you could ensure that it actually would be embedded in the tar,
I'd agree with you. *Also perhaps next-generation reflective striping
paint could be evaluated not only for visibility but traction as well.
(of course, around here, roads are either striped with inferior paint or
too infrequently; at night in a heavy rainstorm the lines just kinda
disappear, making driving on an unfamiliar road a challenge.)

That's when you follow the joint lines. Alternative, drive in the
middle of the crown, if the car leans, you have gone off centre.

"Peter Cole" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been foggy
just a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit of a thrill
to those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been so
tense, having felt slippage quite a few times on the way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar stripes
(while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I can't see
where sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job (sealing the
cracks) but adding some texture might reduce slippage. If not sand,
perhaps rough the surface with a grater, but that might not last as long
(the stripe would get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes on a
motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any idea
how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Around here (MA,USA) they sometimes sand them and sometimes not. I agree
it makes a big difference.

I didn't realize it was being done at all. This seems like something that
LAB or whomever should be lobbying for as standard industry practice. Yes, I
can see the downside of having a bunch of sand on the road for a day or two,
but that's a small price to pay (in my opinion), and you could always bring
in a sweeper an hour later.

Here's something I pulled up on google-
http://www.usroads.com/journals/rmj/9707/rm970702.htm

It appears the emphasis has been on protecting motorcycles, and the danger
comes from tar strips that are wider than the tire. That's not nearly as
common an issue as a tar stripe that's wider than a bicycle tire! Who is
speaking for us, or is this really a non-issue? Sure doesn't seem like a
non-issue for me.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
"Peter Cole" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday; it had been
foggy just a bit earlier and slid halfway across a lane (gave a bit
of a thrill to those with me). It wouldn't have been so bad if I
hadn't been so tense, having felt slippage quite a few times on the
way down the hill.

So my question is, why don't they lay some sand on top of the tar
stripes (while it's still setting, so it embeds in the surface)? I
can't see where sand would keep the tar stripes from doing their job
(sealing the cracks) but adding some texture might reduce slippage.
If not sand, perhaps rough the surface with a grater, but that might
not last as long (the stripe would get worn down smooth after a while).

It's not just a bike issue; I've experienced slippage on tar stripes
on a motorcycle as well.

Is there a reason sand wouldn't work? Do road repair people have any
idea how bad those stripes can be for cyclists?

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Around here (MA,USA) they sometimes sand them and sometimes not. I
agree it makes a big difference.

I didn't realize it was being done at all. This seems like something
that LAB or whomever should be lobbying for as standard industry
practice. Yes, I can see the downside of having a bunch of sand on the
road for a day or two, but that's a small price to pay (in my opinion),
and you could always bring in a sweeper an hour later.

Here's something I pulled up on google-
http://www.usroads.com/journals/rmj/9707/rm970702.htm

It appears the emphasis has been on protecting motorcycles, and the
danger comes from tar strips that are wider than the tire. That's not
nearly as common an issue as a tar stripe that's wider than a bicycle
tire! Who is speaking for us, or is this really a non-issue? Sure
doesn't seem like a non-issue for me.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

I agree. I've spun a rear wheel on a climb many times on a wet, shiny
tar stripe, and it's not from my monster legs.

Some lane striping paint is almost as bad, I've side slipped across the
width of a (wet) stripe many times, too. Fortunately, that phenomenon
seems to be disappearing around here. Tar strips at least are (usually)
narrow. There are several built-in road hazards for bikes, including wet
metal: manhole covers, tracks, bridge decks and construction cover
plates. Still, I don't think tar strips are a non-issue, sanding should
be the standard.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday;[...]

I would be extremely surprised if the material was not (at the time of
application) an asphalt emulsion. Tar, which is derived from coal, has
hardly been used in the past half-century in the US.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

Jobst Brandt wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:

Had some fun with tar stripes on a descent Thursday;[...]

I would be extremely surprised if the material was not (at the time
of application) an asphalt emulsion. Tar, which is derived from
coal, has hardly been used in the past half-century in the US.

Around the SF Bay Area, hot tar is used and is applied with a crudded
up sticky long wand with a nozzle at the end of a hot hose to the
offending crack... that is often not even air blasted clear so the tar
doesn't go into the crack. The operators of this tar, often bored to
death, pint patterns on the road where the are no cracks. With age,
the tar oxidizes, turns brown, and gives moderate traction.

Are you sure this is heated tar, and not heated asphalt? The latter is
much more likely.

A way to test would be to apply a light petroleum solvent such as WD-40
[1] to the sealant. If the sealant is soluble it is asphalt, if not, it
is tar.

[1] Whatever its other failings, WD-40 is excellent for cleaning asphalt
off metal surfaces.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007