Jobst

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 3:02:23 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 1:17:46 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 12:14:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 11:09:25 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 1:10 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

IOW, Tom doesn't want to measure results. Things like duration of life,
infant mortality, percent of GDP devoted to paying for health care, cost
of health care to employers, etc. mean nothing. He wants to count
doctors - or anything that can partially justify his fundamentalist
beliefs.

Regarding efficiency - One of those sites had this: "On indicators of
efficiency, the U.S. ranks last among the 11 countries, with the U.K.
and Sweden ranking first and second, respectively. The U.S. has poor
performance on measures of national health expenditures and
administrative costs as well as on measures of administrative hassles,
avoidable emergency room use, and duplicative medical testing."

I've recounted the months of bills, phone calls and arguments I went
through to avoid paying for blood tests that were supposed to be covered
by our insurance. The bills had been submitted by the lab to the insurer
at least three times. I suspect at least 15 man-hours (not counting
mine) were spent investigating why this obviously qualified bill was
being rejected. Ultimately it was covered, but the time cost for the lab
and the insurance company were significant.

All other westernized countries do better. Free market fundamentalists
can't admit that.

Let me guess - you're back to wearing white makeup, floppy shoes and a red nose.

Mortality rates do NOT tell you general health. It tells you life expectancy. The life expectancy in the USA is much lower than other countries not because Americans have shorter lifespans but because the statistics are derived from the population as a whole meaning that they count illegal aliens, Chinese and Indian immigrants whose lifespans are a great deal less.

I don't think that the Isle of Mann even has a doctor and they report long lifespans. Is that supposed to mean that doctors aren't required or that they run to the mainland for treatments? Or maybe living where they can get decent food and live a stressless life adds to lifespans? And of course your claim that lifespan in general counts and not the ability to cure dangerous medical conditions because you have easier and faster access to medical treatments doesn't count in your book.

I'll tell you something ass - Canada has a socialized medical system. And the WAITING period for most severe conditions is longer than the lifespan of people with those conditions. That's why all of the US hospitals near the Canadian borders have long lists of Canadians there for treatments.

http://www.aarp.org/politics-society...alth-care.html

When demand is inelastic, you need market regulation -- otherwise we'd be paying $10 a therm for natural gas during the heating season.

Unlike you, I pay my own medical insurance premium and have done so for over 20 years -- and I'm not talking about a nickel-and-dime Medigap or Advantage plan. I'm talking big premiums -- more than I paid for my son's annual tuition at University of Utah. Repealing ACA won't reduce the premiums for my type of coverage and, according to the CBO, it will drive them up by 40%. The market is clearly broken.

I am using my own private medical insurance since it was cheaper than the insurance to cover the medicare gap. And it is only about $1,500 a year or perhaps slightly more. And I have received no complaints or rising rates despite this last year costing them over $15,000. It is unlikely that I will have any medical bills for many years except for my 9 month inspection from my neurologist and the twice a year from my GP.

You have a Medicare Advantage plan which, by the way, is much like the insurance scheme for everyone in Germany and (sort of) Japan. The bulk of premium is paid by the government with a "spread" paid by the policy holder. The typical Advantage plan in Oregon has better benefits than most employer-provided group plans. It also sweeps in Coverage D and provides a good pharmacy benefit.

But its socialized insurance. The employed and self-employed (me) are paying the lion's share of your "premium."

See http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brief...ow-it-financed

The way Medicare Advantage works is that CMS pays a capitated fee to the HMO/PPO based on a "benchmark" for your county, and your HMO/PPO charges you the spread to cover the cost of estimated plan benefits (so called "bid"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Advantage The benchmark number varies, but yours is probably in the $800-900 range -- meaning your "true" premium is subsidized to the tune of $800-900 per month. That's socialized insurance. YOU ARE A COMMUNIST, COMRADE!

Time to turn in your teabag. Why should I pay for YOUR insurance? I'm going to quit paying my self-employment tax so I don't have to pay for YOUR insurance!


-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/1/2017 6:52 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 3:40:49 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:08:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 2:01:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I've noticed many times that people who disagree with Tom tend to give
links to information. But Tom tends to give pronouncements of things he
believes he remembers, with no corresponding links or documentation.

I could tell about my Canadian relatives and their successful cancer
treatments, but that anecdote wouldn't matter to Tom.

Instead, I'm waiting for data on food prices for 2006 and 2016. Come on,
Tom! It's your move! :-)

You know, the last time I said that on a news group several people like you told me I was full of **** and several nurses from the northwest and several more from around Toronto said the same thing as I did and then a patient popped in with his experience which was a 12 month wait for a cancer that gave him a maximum lifespan of three months. And it was just a tumor sitting on his heart. So he came to the US and it was gone in one operation and a month of chemo.

But you want something from a site that you'll believe. And that includes a site that proved to be almost 300% incorrect. But IT'S IN WRITING. Your age is really beginning to show.

Good example! Another anecdote that you believe you remember. No link to online
information.

Since you like anecdotes: My Canadian relative had to wait months for his wife's
cancer treatment. He complained. But as it turned out, the doctors were right,
the cure was complete, and it seems to have cost less than American treatment
would have cost.

Regarding Canada, Jay gave this: http://www.aarp.org/politics-society...alth-care.html

There's also this: https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/...c-health-care/

And this: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/11..._13057392.html

But we have at least a couple Canadians posting here. We should let them speak,
I guess.

All of which has nothing to do with your previous claims of astronomical
increases in food prices between 2006 and 2016. I posted data showing that was
likely false. You've posted nothing but "memories," Tom. Can you _never_ find
data to back your alleged memories?

Frank - you really are one of those women's private parts.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...or-health-care

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...s-health-care/

Here is one of the far left wing sources that you prefer:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0db570d3778ff

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...adian-patients

All of this was readily available and if you didn't want to believe me you COULD have looked it up yourself. But instead you prefer being a F-ing asshole and pretending the world isn't like it is.

First, nobody has denied that some Canadians come to the U.S. for some
procedures - just as some Americans go to Mexico or Costa Rica for some
procedures. But when you read articles like those, watch for words like
"increasingly" - meaning more than before... but exactly how much more?
What are the numbers?

"Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians’ Use Of Health Care Services In The
United States" Katz et. al,
http://content.healthaffairs.org/con...3/19.full.html says in part
"Results from these sources do not support the widespread perception
that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States.
Indeed, the numbers found are so small as to be barely detectible
relative to the use of care by Canadians at home."

Note that one of your sources does rate Canada's health care pretty low
- but still better than the U.S. "The Commonwealth Fund, a U.S. think
tank, released a report two years ago ranking Canada 10th out of 11
wealthy nations in terms of health care. Only the United States fared
worse. The report, based largely on satisfaction surveys by patients and
health-care providers, placed Canada last in timeliness of care. The
United Kingdom was ranked No. 1"

Another of your sources, talking about a Canadian who went to Detroit
for an angioplasty procedure, said this: "... [the Canadian system] is
working. He received his care, the Canadian health system paid for it,
and he is alive and well today. Had he been a citizen of Detroit, he
would owe the hospital all of that money plus interest, would have had
to sell his house and declared bankruptcy."

And of course, it's not just Canadians that go elsewhere for care. I
worked with an engineer who had retained his Hungarian citizenship.
Whenever he needed anything more serious than treatment for the flu, he
flew back to Hungary because he knew the care was excellent and
essentially free.

It _is_ true that if a person needs an extreme, highly sophisticated
medical procedure, the U.S. may be the best place to come. Dick Cheney's
robotic heart wouldn't be paid for by Canada's system (itself a good
thing). But cutting edge treatments that cost immense amounts to add a
year of life do present a knotty philosophical problem. Should society
(including insurance companies) really shell out millions so you die in
2019 instead of 2018? What should be the criterion, in terms of dollars
spent per year of life? I don't know, but the answer can't be infinite.

But despite our space-age capabilities, even Americans with no foreign
citizenship travel for medical care.
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/0...ear-Should-You
I've seen many similar articles medical tourism for Americans. That
article claims 1.4 million American "medical tourists" per year. How
many Canadians do that?

Why would the Americans do that? Here's why, using one of the same
publications you used:
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...m-in-the-world
Fundamentally, we pay a hell of a lot more than anyone else, yet we
don't get anywhere near the best results.

Now, back to inflation of food prices from 2006 to 2016... ??

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a connotation I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.


That may have been true many years ago but is no longer true today.
(and all you had to do is look)

See:
http://www.whatclinic.com/dentists/t...dental-x-rayst
or
http://www.bangkokdentalcenter.com/t...logy-xray.html
or
https://www.samitivejhospitals.com/e...dental-clinic/
or
https://www.gracedentalclinic.com/technology-eng.html

Note: the first site quotes a price for panoramic x-rays, in English
aimed at foreigners, as US$1,000. The Thai price is traditionally
about 50%

I might add that Thailand seems to be quite well known for cosmetic
surgery. It is said that one can fly from America, stay in a posh
hotel, have the operation(s) and fly home cheaper then the surgery
costs alone in the U.S.

I have also read that Thailand is far and away the most experienced in
penis re-attachments. See:
http://www.glorysurgery.com/surgery-...nis-video-240/
http://tinyurl.com/yc6tgqk2
Or even
http://tinyurl.com/yc6tgqk2


--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/1/2017 8:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

You have a Medicare Advantage plan which, by the way, is much like the insurance scheme for everyone in Germany and (sort of) Japan. The bulk of premium is paid by the government with a "spread" paid by the policy holder. The typical Advantage plan in Oregon has better benefits than most employer-provided group plans. It also sweeps in Coverage D and provides a good pharmacy benefit.

But its socialized insurance. The employed and self-employed (me) are paying the lion's share of your "premium."

See http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brief...ow-it-financed

The way Medicare Advantage works is that CMS pays a capitated fee to the HMO/PPO based on a "benchmark" for your county, and your HMO/PPO charges you the spread to cover the cost of estimated plan benefits (so called "bid"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Advantage The benchmark number varies, but yours is probably in the $800-900 range -- meaning your "true" premium is subsidized to the tune of $800-900 per month. That's socialized insurance. YOU ARE A COMMUNIST, COMRADE!

Time to turn in your teabag. Why should I pay for YOUR insurance? I'm going to quit paying my self-employment tax so I don't have to pay for YOUR insurance!

Some people can't seem to grasp the fundamental idea of insurance.
Everyone accepts a small penalty (the premiums they pay) in order to
prevent having to endure a large penalty - i.e. catastrophic personal
expenses, in this case, medical expenses.

The insurance company is betting you're going to remain pretty healthy.
You're betting you're going to get terribly sick. You bet against the
insurance company, and you hope the insurance company wins.

People like Tom who don't like the system have an alternative: Just
don't buy any insurance. If necessary, move to some country with nothing
like Medicare. Just pile up your own money in savings, and bet on your
own health. Bet that you'll never need a $100,000 medical treatment to
save your life.

I'm sure it can work, because the insurance companies have bet on your
health, and they've been winning big! They've collected enough money to
build really impressive skyscrapers for their headquarters.

And hey, for most of my life I never bought comprehensive insurance even
on brand new cars. I won that bet, too!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.


So what? I go to the hospital and there are English speaking doctors
there and I don't have to wait an unendurable length of time to see
them.

Is it better in the U.S.? when you walk in and are seen immediately?
Does the nurse come out in the hall and drag you kicking and screaming
into the office?


What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

You quite obviously don't know what you are talking about as (1) a
doctor in government service in Thailand make a very comfortable
living and (2) those that work in private hospitals make a fortune and
(3) a great many doctors that work in government hospitals have
private clinics which they open in the evenings.

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

In the past many doctors in Thailand were trained in England or the
U.S. and if a specialist were usually "board certified" in the country
that they trained in. Now:

There are 22 medical schools located in the country, and the majority
of them are public and state-funded. The first medical school in
Thailand was founded in the late 1880s at the Siriraj Hospital, a
teaching hospital that remains one of the most highly reputable
medical schools in the region.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in
Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years.
Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1.

The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which
is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1.

Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker:
Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with
82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88.


Tell us more about the competent doctors.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
snip
But we have at least a couple Canadians posting here. We should let them speak,
I guess.

My daughter broke her arm a couple of years ago and it required surgery to
pin and set it. The most expensive part of the procedure was the parking
bill at the hospital, which, having had universal healthcare all my life, I
promptly complained about how expensive healthcare was.

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 21:28:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/1/2017 6:52 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 3:40:49 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:08:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 2:01:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I've noticed many times that people who disagree with Tom tend to give
links to information. But Tom tends to give pronouncements of things he
believes he remembers, with no corresponding links or documentation.

I could tell about my Canadian relatives and their successful cancer
treatments, but that anecdote wouldn't matter to Tom.

Instead, I'm waiting for data on food prices for 2006 and 2016. Come on,
Tom! It's your move! :-)

You know, the last time I said that on a news group several people like you told me I was full of **** and several nurses from the northwest and several more from around Toronto said the same thing as I did and then a patient popped in with his experience which was a 12 month wait for a cancer that gave him a maximum lifespan of three months. And it was just a tumor sitting on his heart. So he came to the US and it was gone in one operation and a month of chemo.

But you want something from a site that you'll believe. And that includes a site that proved to be almost 300% incorrect. But IT'S IN WRITING. Your age is really beginning to show.

Good example! Another anecdote that you believe you remember. No link to online
information.

Since you like anecdotes: My Canadian relative had to wait months for his wife's
cancer treatment. He complained. But as it turned out, the doctors were right,
the cure was complete, and it seems to have cost less than American treatment
would have cost.

Regarding Canada, Jay gave this: http://www.aarp.org/politics-society...alth-care.html

There's also this: https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/...c-health-care/

And this: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/11..._13057392.html

But we have at least a couple Canadians posting here. We should let them speak,
I guess.

All of which has nothing to do with your previous claims of astronomical
increases in food prices between 2006 and 2016. I posted data showing that was
likely false. You've posted nothing but "memories," Tom. Can you _never_ find
data to back your alleged memories?

Frank - you really are one of those women's private parts.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...or-health-care

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...s-health-care/

Here is one of the far left wing sources that you prefer:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0db570d3778ff

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...adian-patients

All of this was readily available and if you didn't want to believe me you COULD have looked it up yourself. But instead you prefer being a F-ing asshole and pretending the world isn't like it is.

First, nobody has denied that some Canadians come to the U.S. for some
procedures - just as some Americans go to Mexico or Costa Rica for some
procedures. But when you read articles like those, watch for words like
"increasingly" - meaning more than before... but exactly how much more?
What are the numbers?

"Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians’ Use Of Health Care Services In The
United States" Katz et. al,
http://content.healthaffairs.org/con...3/19.full.html says in part
"Results from these sources do not support the widespread perception
that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States.
Indeed, the numbers found are so small as to be barely detectible
relative to the use of care by Canadians at home."

Note that one of your sources does rate Canada's health care pretty low
- but still better than the U.S. "The Commonwealth Fund, a U.S. think
tank, released a report two years ago ranking Canada 10th out of 11
wealthy nations in terms of health care. Only the United States fared
worse. The report, based largely on satisfaction surveys by patients and
health-care providers, placed Canada last in timeliness of care. The
United Kingdom was ranked No. 1"

Another of your sources, talking about a Canadian who went to Detroit
for an angioplasty procedure, said this: "... [the Canadian system] is
working. He received his care, the Canadian health system paid for it,
and he is alive and well today. Had he been a citizen of Detroit, he
would owe the hospital all of that money plus interest, would have had
to sell his house and declared bankruptcy."

And of course, it's not just Canadians that go elsewhere for care. I
worked with an engineer who had retained his Hungarian citizenship.
Whenever he needed anything more serious than treatment for the flu, he
flew back to Hungary because he knew the care was excellent and
essentially free.


I have a good friend who was born and educated in Hungary and then
became a dissident and escaped and worked in the West until he
retired, a few years ago. He then returned to live in Hungary. He
tells me that you can hardly get a dental appoint now for the Germans
flocking for the cheap dental care.

In fact he wrote ( what I think was a joke ) saying the under the
Communists you had to bribe someone to get dental care and now under
the democrats you have to bribe someone to get on the waiting list :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/1/2017 8:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 8:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

You have a Medicare Advantage plan which, by the way, is
much like the insurance scheme for everyone in Germany and
(sort of) Japan. The bulk of premium is paid by the
government with a "spread" paid by the policy holder. The
typical Advantage plan in Oregon has better benefits than
most employer-provided group plans. It also sweeps in
Coverage D and provides a good pharmacy benefit.

But its socialized insurance. The employed and
self-employed (me) are paying the lion's share of your
"premium."

See
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brief...ow-it-financed


The way Medicare Advantage works is that CMS pays a
capitated fee to the HMO/PPO based on a "benchmark" for
your county, and your HMO/PPO charges you the spread to
cover the cost of estimated plan benefits (so called
"bid"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Advantage
The benchmark number varies, but yours is probably in the
$800-900 range -- meaning your "true" premium is
subsidized to the tune of $800-900 per month. That's
socialized insurance. YOU ARE A COMMUNIST, COMRADE!

Time to turn in your teabag. Why should I pay for YOUR
insurance? I'm going to quit paying my self-employment tax
so I don't have to pay for YOUR insurance!

Some people can't seem to grasp the fundamental idea of
insurance. Everyone accepts a small penalty (the premiums
they pay) in order to prevent having to endure a large
penalty - i.e. catastrophic personal expenses, in this case,
medical expenses.

The insurance company is betting you're going to remain
pretty healthy. You're betting you're going to get terribly
sick. You bet against the insurance company, and you hope
the insurance company wins.

People like Tom who don't like the system have an
alternative: Just don't buy any insurance. If necessary,
move to some country with nothing like Medicare. Just pile
up your own money in savings, and bet on your own health.
Bet that you'll never need a $100,000 medical treatment to
save your life.

I'm sure it can work, because the insurance companies have
bet on your health, and they've been winning big! They've
collected enough money to build really impressive
skyscrapers for their headquarters.

And hey, for most of my life I never bought comprehensive
insurance even on brand new cars. I won that bet, too!



You're describing a classic insurance model which no longer
exists. In principle, the ancient fire companies collected
from building owners who then displayed the fire badge on
the edifice. No badge, no water. Good system!

In reality it's now more like Federal flood insurance which
has premiums people bitch about, limits which keep most
businesses and many homes well below actual losses, no
private insurance available, ridiculous administrative costs
and of course it loses a few billion dollars every year.

Seeing the utterly indefensible screwups in that program,
Florida under a previous idiot governor duplicated it for
the state. Having made fish soup from an aquarium, no one
knows how to get out of this but the premiums are too low,
the costs are too high, the reserves are inadequate for a
normal hurricane season (which we haven't had in 8~9
years)and of course normal weather events with normal losses
will return. The State of Florida and its citizens are
directly and fully liable. Ouch.

Which brings us back to a regulated health insurance cabal.
I don't have a simple answer because the various interests
are convoluted, entrenched and too often crooked. This is of
course utterly unrelated to health or medical services in
the same way that education budgets are unrelated to
education[1]. The system feeds itself; you are the product!

[1] The Last Honest Man, Art Shanker of AFT often ended
press conferences with his famous quip, "When students pay
union dues I will care about students."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in
Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years.
Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1.

The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which
is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1.

Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker:
Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with
82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88.


Tell us more about the competent doctors.



We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster,
do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other
oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations.

We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks
the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We
also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than
car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_
infection. They're pros!

And we wouldn't have it any other way!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971