Do your duty for truth, stomp a revisionist today

In article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 15, 10:11*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Is this similar to how Ronnie Reagan brought down the USSR all by
his cowboy self?

Oh, the similarities are inescapable. Reagan played a political
poker game called "guns and butter" with Gorbachev. It was a
totally uneven contest; there could be only one outcome; Reagan,
smiling genially, from the beginning played with loaded deck. It
came out that the only way it could, and all it cost was to send
the Soviet empire down the toilet of history was money wasted on
otherwise idle engineers, not the lives of soldiers, which is where
we started.

A Reagan worshipper, too? How about the Soviet invasion of
Afghanistan? Did that play a role-- including the thousands of
"training accident" fatalities reported to grieving families?

Afghanistan was a tipping point only because the Soviet Union was
already economically weakened by decades of single-party control and
outsized military spending (not very different than the Rovian vision
for America of a permanent right wing ascendancy) with a lack of
economic productivity per capita and relatively small export economy.
Insularity can be fatal. The USSR should have had no problem with
economically and politically supporting the incursion into Afghanistan;
that it did was a sign of its prior weakness. Unfortunately it also
emboldened the likes of bin Laden, who misinterpreted this as a sign of
the might and invincibility of Islamist states.

IMHO Lech Walesa and Solidarnosc had more to do with the collapse of the
Soviet Union than did Ronnie Raygun twittering at the Brandenburg Gate.
Raygun was fortunate to be in office when the USSR began to collapse
under its own weight, but his speechifying wasn't doing much more than
poking a sick dog with a stick.

There is a lesson to be learned from this history, which is that single
party rule is ultimately fatal to a nation. The reason that the
American Experiment works is that the people get to make course
corrections periodically. That arguably occurred with Kennedy in 1960,
with Reagan in 1980 and, it may turn, out has occurred again with Obama
in 2008. In 2012 or 2016 there might be another course correction.

The André Jute wrote:
Sherman:
I also would have thought that Mr. Jute would have been aware of Allen
Dulles arranging to overthrow the democratically elected government of
Iran in 1953 in retaliation for nationalizing oil production.

By the way, Tommy, now that I am in this thread again because Jay has
reopened it, the CIA man on the ground in Tehran in the overthrow of
Mossadeq was Kermit Roosevelt. What do you make of that?

Irrelevant to prior discussion. Unless one holds to the ridiculous idea
that linage should confer anything but inherited genetic material.

Jute:
Sure; I actually once discussed it with him [Dulles]. I liked his sister, who
saved the children of Vienna by swapping the Lippizaners of the Vienna
riding school for several trainloads of food from Italy. The Dulles
were were great American public servants, the less public ones
possibly even more so than the politician.

Beattie:
He died in '69. How old are you Andre? BTW, read "Legacy of Ashes"
for an interesting account of the harm done to US interests by Allen
Dulles. Very fascinating history of the CIA. -- Jay Beattie.

I'm 63. It's amazing what an intern on the staff of a powerful
politician can achieve in the way of introductions, or could when I
was a boy. You don't need the pol to drop the dime, or even his chief
of staff; a secretary to someone with a vaguely important title will
do, and is easily charmed into it because the natural instinct in any
political office is networking. Or, with folk less elevated than
Dulles, even the most junior intern can do a lot with a little
chutzpuh: "I'm calling from X's office..."

More tales of The Great André Jute.

I'm sure "Legacy of Ashes" is fascinating to those who believe the CIA
are the devil's spawn. I saw it at the library, read the blurb on the
flap, read a page at randon, shuddered at the onesidedness of it, and
put it down.

Preconceived bias is a two way street sometimes.

No doubt it traduces Allen Dulles. That's easy. He's dead and can't
talk back. But did it mention Operation Sunrise, when in Switzerland
during WWII Dulles persauded SS General Kurt Wolff to surrender all
the German forces in Northern Italy, so that no battle need be fought
and a 100,000 American, British, Australian, Canadian and Polish boys
wouldn't have to die to take the ground from battlehardened German
troops in entrenched positions -- when the surrender could so easily
be negotiated. For that alone, Allen Dulles is forever above the
smears of whining disciples of deconstruction like that man who wrote
"Legacy of Ashes", never mind wannabe smear-merchants like our own
little Tommy. A 100,000 mothers' prayers for the soul of Allen Dulles
still reverberate where it matters.

The 100,000 number is speculation, not fact as Mr. Jute tries to present it.

More than 100,000 died as the result of Dulles's actions in Iran and
Guatemala, so the moral ledger is not in his favor.

Hey, Tommy, will you now explain to us how it is all right for a
Roosevelt to do what you already condemned Dulles for allegedly doing?

No, I will not explain that, since I never made that contention. yawn

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for revisionists

How ironic is the above?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
“Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.” - gene daniels

The André Jute wrote:
On Nov 14, 6:13 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:26 am, Andre Jute wrote:

(snipping):

I'm sure "Legacy of Ashes" is fascinating to those who believe the CIA
are the devil's spawn. I saw it at the library, read the blurb on the
flap, read a page at randon, shuddered at the onesidedness of it, and
put it down.
No doubt it traduces Allen Dulles. For that [Operation Sunrise] alone, Allen Dulles is forever above the
smears of whining disciples of deconstruction like that man who wrote
"Legacy of Ashes", never mind wannabe smear-merchants like our own
little Tommy. A 100,000 mothers' prayers for the soul of Allen Dulles
still reverberate where it matters.
He did something good, Dulles?

Jesus. I don't know what it is with you people that you can't see the
good in anyone. Dulles saved the lives of at last a 100,000 thousand
young men, and you instantly dismiss it.

Speculation presented as fact. I would have thought Mr. Jute would have
a better grasp of logic.

[...]
A hundred thousand American boys alive because of Allen Dulles and you
immediately want to kibbitz that down to worthlessness because, on the
orders of the President, Dulles fixed a few South American and Middle
Eastern elections and regimes?

Destroying democratic regimes resulting in the deaths of hundreds of
thousands and misery for millions in order to satiate the lust for
wealth and power of a few sociopaths is to be admired?

Andre Jute
Fairminded

Um, no.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
“Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.” - gene daniels

On Nov 18, 4:30*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The André Jute wrote:
Sherman:
I also would have thought that Mr. Jute would have been aware of Allen
Dulles arranging to overthrow the democratically elected government of
Iran in 1953 in retaliation for nationalizing oil production.

By the way, Tommy, now that I am in this thread again because Jay has
reopened it, the CIA man on the ground in Tehran in the overthrow of
Mossadeq was Kermit Roosevelt. What do you make of that?

Irrelevant to prior discussion. Unless one holds to the ridiculous idea
that linage should confer anything but inherited genetic material.

You should consider the words you prattle out so pompously, Tommy,
preferably before you send them on their way. One might, if one
bothered to put one's mind in gear, discover that nurture, the
environment of a great family, has an influence on outlook. You, for
instance, had your sour outlook on life formed by the sour outlook of
those dour midwestern dairy farmers among whom you grew up. But, hey,
it coulda been worse: you could have grown up among the Amish.

Jute:
Sure; I actually once discussed it with him [Dulles]. I liked his sister, who
saved the children of Vienna by swapping the Lippizaners of the Vienna
riding school for several trainloads of food from Italy. The Dulles
were were great American public servants, the less public ones
possibly even more so than the politician.

Beattie:
He died in '69. *How old are you Andre? *BTW, read "Legacy of Ashes"
for an interesting account of the harm done to US interests by Allen
Dulles. Very fascinating history of the CIA. -- Jay Beattie.

I'm 63. It's amazing what an intern on the staff of a powerful
politician can achieve in the way of introductions, or could when I
was a boy. You don't need the pol to drop the dime, or even his chief
of staff; a secretary to someone with a vaguely important title will
do, and is easily charmed into it because the natural instinct in any
political office is networking. Or, with folk less elevated than
Dulles, even the most junior intern can do a lot with a little
chutzpuh: "I'm calling from X's office..."

More tales of The Great André Jute.

I wasn't so great then, Tommy, just an intern charming middle-aged
ladies, mostly, to drop a dime for me so I could talk to a few movers
and shakers and discover what motivated them. I'm not so great now;
just a cyclist and an entertainer. It's what I did in between that
made me notable.

I'm sure "Legacy of Ashes" is fascinating to those who believe the CIA
are the devil's spawn. I saw it at the library, read the blurb on the
flap, read a page at randon, shuddered at the onesidedness of it, and
put it down.

Preconceived bias is a two way street sometimes.

Oh, I'm openminded. But you little clowns must prove something
specific to the discredit of Allen Dulles. So far all I've heard is
your general mindless paranoia about anyone in government who got out
of bed in the morning. It's crap to come here and say, "It is possible
that he was evil, therefore he was evil, and no further proof is
required than the possibility." Not so, sonny. You have to provide
specific, factual evidence. You don't have any.

No doubt it traduces Allen Dulles. That's easy. He's dead and can't
talk back. But did it mention Operation Sunrise, when in Switzerland
during WWII Dulles persauded SS General Kurt Wolff to surrender all
the German forces in Northern Italy, so that no battle need be fought
and a 100,000 American, British, Australian, Canadian and Polish boys
wouldn't have to die to take the ground from battlehardened German
troops in entrenched positions -- when the surrender could so easily
be negotiated. For that alone, Allen Dulles is forever above the
smears of whining disciples of deconstruction like that *man who wrote
"Legacy of Ashes", never mind wannabe smear-merchants like our own
little Tommy. A 100,000 mothers' prayers for the soul of Allen Dulles
still reverberate where it matters.

The 100,000 number is speculation, not fact as Mr. Jute tries to present it.

Oh, excellent, Tommy. Actually, I cut it back as a trap for the likes
of you. What Major-General Lemnitzer actually said was that Allen
Dulles saved the lives of 250,000 young men, and the pain of more than
that wounded and maimed. That's not speculation, sonny. There was no
way to take Northern Italy by force that wouldn't cost lives by the
tens of thousands.

More than 100,000 died as the result of Dulles's actions in Iran and
Guatemala, so the moral ledger is not in his favor.

Name them, Tommy. Name even ten of them and I'll listen to you. I can
name all the 250,000 young American, British, Canadian, Australian and
Polish soldiers who didn't die because Allen Dulles swallowed his
pride and negotiated with Karl Wolff. Their names are in records long
since made public. Are any of these dead you claim in Iran and
Gautemala now named in a list the governments there published for the
public right to know? LOL at the very idea. Just those two sentences,
contrasting the freedoms of America against the secret murders of Iran
and Gautemala, whoever is in charge there at any one time, makes your
paranoia risible, dear Tommy. Thanks for the giggle.

Hey, Tommy, will you now explain to us how it is all right for a
Roosevelt to do what you already condemned Dulles for allegedly doing?

No, I will not explain that, since I never made that contention. yawn

You didn't condemn Dulles for allegedly overthrowing Mossadeq? Well,
you have since.

So explain, dear Tommy, why you don't condemn Kermit Roosevelt for
admitting he did (it's all in his autobiography) what you've already
condemned Allen Dulles for allegedly doing?

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for revisionists

How ironic is the above?

Not at all. I have all the facts, and you have nothing but the vapours
of your paranoia.

Andre Jute
Usually right, but always willing to learn

On Nov 18, 4:35*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The André Jute wrote:
On Nov 14, 6:13 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:26 am, Andre Jute wrote:

(snipping):

I'm sure "Legacy of Ashes" is fascinating to those who believe the CIA
are the devil's spawn. I saw it at the library, read the blurb on the
flap, read a page at randon, shuddered at the onesidedness of it, and
put it down.
No doubt it traduces Allen Dulles. For that [Operation Sunrise] alone, Allen Dulles is forever above the
smears of whining disciples of deconstruction like that *man who wrote
"Legacy of Ashes", never mind wannabe smear-merchants like our own
little Tommy. A 100,000 mothers' prayers for the soul of Allen Dulles
still reverberate where it matters.
He did something good, Dulles?

Jesus. I don't know what it is with you people that you can't see the
good in anyone. Dulles saved the lives of at last a 100,000 thousand
young men, and you instantly dismiss it.

Speculation presented as fact. I would have thought Mr. Jute would have
a better grasp of logic.

Oh, but Tommy, it isn't my speculation, it is the speculation of the
highest military authorities at Caserna, where they were preparing
battle plans that allowed for what they feared would be a bloodbath
because the Germans were battle-hardened troops well dug into natural
defensive formations. Not me, sonny, very experienced American and
British generals.

[...]
A hundred thousand American boys alive because of Allen Dulles and you
immediately want to kibbitz that down to worthlessness because, on the
orders of the President, Dulles fixed a few South American and Middle
Eastern elections and regimes?

Destroying democratic regimes resulting in the deaths of hundreds of
thousands and misery for millions in order to satiate the lust for
wealth and power of a few sociopaths is to be admired?

Who're you talking about, Tommy? The Russians who threw the leading
statesman of Poland to his death from a window? Antonov who told the
Hungarian leadership that he was their friend right up to the minute
he put them in front of a firing squad in 1956 while trucks were still
delivering their gifts of furniture to his official residence?

Andre Jute
Fairminded

Um, no.

If you don't agree, Tommy, you must find *and prove* an example of me
being less than evenhanded. You're naive if you think you can chip
something off the shining reputation of Allen Dulles; he never did an
underhand thing in his life that wasn't ordered by the President. He
served the Commander in Chief just like any other soldier or sailor or
airman. He didn't win his medals in The Sphinx (look it up), either.
Dulles is a hero and you're a sour clown.

Andre Jute
Now let us praise famous men -- Ecclesiastes

On Nov 18, 12:48*am, Andre Jute wrote:

an example of me
being less than evenhanded.

Fused participle.

You're naive if you think you can chip
something off the shining reputation of Allen Dulles; he never did an
underhand thing in his life that wasn't ordered by the President.

He was only following orders?

Thing is, Dulles is already well chipped.

Remember Nixon's visit to Central America?

Does "Banana Republic" mean anything to you? "Imperialism"?

Guzman, CIA coup in retaliation for giving land, taken (back) from
United States Fruit Company, to citizens of Guatamala?

He
served the Commander in Chief just like any other soldier or sailor or
airman. He didn't win his medals in The Sphinx (look it up), either.
Dulles is a hero and you're a sour clown.

Dulles has a lot of dirt on him. Be fair. Be balanced!

The USA. It really could have been the shining beacon on the hill, but
noooo... --D-y

THE André Jute wrote:
On Nov 18, 4:35 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The André Jute wrote:
On Nov 14, 6:13 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:26 am, Andre Jute wrote:
(snipping):
I'm sure "Legacy of Ashes" is fascinating to those who believe the CIA
are the devil's spawn. I saw it at the library, read the blurb on the
flap, read a page at randon, shuddered at the onesidedness of it, and
put it down.
No doubt it traduces Allen Dulles. For that [Operation Sunrise] alone, Allen Dulles is forever above the
smears of whining disciples of deconstruction like that man who wrote
"Legacy of Ashes", never mind wannabe smear-merchants like our own
little Tommy. A 100,000 mothers' prayers for the soul of Allen Dulles
still reverberate where it matters.
He did something good, Dulles?
Jesus. I don't know what it is with you people that you can't see the
good in anyone. Dulles saved the lives of at last a 100,000 thousand
young men, and you instantly dismiss it.
Speculation presented as fact. I would have thought Mr. Jute would have
a better grasp of logic.

Oh, but Tommy, it isn't my speculation, it is the speculation of the
highest military authorities at Caserna, where they were preparing
battle plans that allowed for what they feared would be a bloodbath
because the Germans were battle-hardened troops well dug into natural
defensive formations. Not me, sonny, very experienced American and
British generals.

Yes, and generals are never wrong in their expectations. end sarcasm

[...]
A hundred thousand American boys alive because of Allen Dulles and you
immediately want to kibbitz that down to worthlessness because, on the
orders of the President, Dulles fixed a few South American and Middle
Eastern elections and regimes?
Destroying democratic regimes resulting in the deaths of hundreds of
thousands and misery for millions in order to satiate the lust for
wealth and power of a few sociopaths is to be admired?

Who're you talking about, Tommy? The Russians who threw the leading
statesman of Poland to his death from a window? Antonov who told the
Hungarian leadership that he was their friend right up to the minute
he put them in front of a firing squad in 1956 while trucks were still
delivering their gifts of furniture to his official residence?

Logic and common knowledge [1] indicate I was referring to the dead in
Guatemala and Iran [2].

Andre Jute
Fairminded
Um, no.

If you don't agree, Tommy, you must find *and prove* an example of me
being less than evenhanded.

Making false claims about what I wrote. (Where is Mr. Jute's apology?)

You're naive if you think you can chip
something off the shining reputation of Allen Dulles; he never did an
underhand thing in his life that wasn't ordered by the President. He
served the Commander in Chief just like any other soldier or sailor or
airman. He didn't win his medals in The Sphinx (look it up), either.
Dulles is a hero and you're a sour clown.

So following orders makes actions moral? I guess Mr. Jute disapproves of
the Nürnberg Doctrine. Dulles could have resigned at any time from his
position if he felt the order given were illegal and/or immoral.

Andre Jute
Now let us praise famous men -- Ecclesiastes

[1] Try them!
[2] Mossadegh remains in power, there is no "Islamic Revolution", no
hostage taking at the US Embassy, and no US supported proxy war of
vengeance by Iraq against Iran.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
“Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.” - gene daniels

THE André Jute wrote:
On Nov 18, 4:30 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The André Jute wrote:
Sherman:
I also would have thought that Mr. Jute would have been aware of Allen
Dulles arranging to overthrow the democratically elected government of
Iran in 1953 in retaliation for nationalizing oil production.
By the way, Tommy, now that I am in this thread again because Jay has
reopened it, the CIA man on the ground in Tehran in the overthrow of
Mossadeq was Kermit Roosevelt. What do you make of that?
Irrelevant to prior discussion. Unless one holds to the ridiculous idea
that linage should confer anything but inherited genetic material.

You should consider the words you prattle out so pompously, Tommy,
preferably before you send them on their way. One might, if one
bothered to put one's mind in gear, discover that nurture, the
environment of a great family, has an influence on outlook. You, for
instance, had your sour outlook on life formed by the sour outlook of
those dour midwestern dairy farmers among whom you grew up. But, hey,
it coulda been worse: you could have grown up among the Amish.

Mr. Jute misses the point completely.

Jute:
Sure; I actually once discussed it with him [Dulles]. I liked his sister, who
saved the children of Vienna by swapping the Lippizaners of the Vienna
riding school for several trainloads of food from Italy. The Dulles
were were great American public servants, the less public ones
possibly even more so than the politician.
Beattie:
He died in '69. How old are you Andre? BTW, read "Legacy of Ashes"
for an interesting account of the harm done to US interests by Allen
Dulles. Very fascinating history of the CIA. -- Jay Beattie.
I'm 63. It's amazing what an intern on the staff of a powerful
politician can achieve in the way of introductions, or could when I
was a boy. You don't need the pol to drop the dime, or even his chief
of staff; a secretary to someone with a vaguely important title will
do, and is easily charmed into it because the natural instinct in any
political office is networking. Or, with folk less elevated than
Dulles, even the most junior intern can do a lot with a little
chutzpuh: "I'm calling from X's office..."
More tales of The Great André Jute.

I wasn't so great then, Tommy, just an intern charming middle-aged
ladies, mostly, to drop a dime for me so I could talk to a few movers
and shakers and discover what motivated them. I'm not so great now;
just a cyclist and an entertainer. It's what I did in between that
made me notable.

Carrying the White Man's Burden, no doubt?

I'm sure "Legacy of Ashes" is fascinating to those who believe the CIA
are the devil's spawn. I saw it at the library, read the blurb on the
flap, read a page at randon, shuddered at the onesidedness of it, and
put it down.
Preconceived bias is a two way street sometimes.

Oh, I'm openminded. But you little clowns must prove something
specific to the discredit of Allen Dulles. So far all I've heard is
your general mindless paranoia about anyone in government who got out
of bed in the morning. It's crap to come here and say, "It is possible
that he was evil, therefore he was evil, and no further proof is
required than the possibility." Not so, sonny. You have to provide
specific, factual evidence. You don't have any.

More distortion of what other's write by Mr. Jute. yawn

No doubt it traduces Allen Dulles. That's easy. He's dead and can't
talk back. But did it mention Operation Sunrise, when in Switzerland
during WWII Dulles persauded SS General Kurt Wolff to surrender all
the German forces in Northern Italy, so that no battle need be fought
and a 100,000 American, British, Australian, Canadian and Polish boys
wouldn't have to die to take the ground from battlehardened German
troops in entrenched positions -- when the surrender could so easily
be negotiated. For that alone, Allen Dulles is forever above the
smears of whining disciples of deconstruction like that man who wrote
"Legacy of Ashes", never mind wannabe smear-merchants like our own
little Tommy. A 100,000 mothers' prayers for the soul of Allen Dulles
still reverberate where it matters.
The 100,000 number is speculation, not fact as Mr. Jute tries to present it.

Oh, excellent, Tommy. Actually, I cut it back as a trap for the likes
of you. What Major-General Lemnitzer actually said was that Allen
Dulles saved the lives of 250,000 young men, and the pain of more than
that wounded and maimed. That's not speculation, sonny. There was no
way to take Northern Italy by force that wouldn't cost lives by the
tens of thousands.

Mr. Jute confuses speculation with facts.

More to the point, whatever Allen Dulles did in the reference situation
during WW2 has naught to do with his crimes against humanity in
Guatemala and Iran.

More than 100,000 died as the result of Dulles's actions in Iran and
Guatemala, so the moral ledger is not in his favor.

Name them, Tommy. Name even ten of them and I'll listen to you.

Pointless distraction by Mr. Jute.

I can
name all the 250,000 young American, British, Canadian, Australian and
Polish soldiers who didn't die because Allen Dulles swallowed his
pride and negotiated with Karl Wolff. Their names are in records long
since made public. Are any of these dead you claim in Iran and
Gautemala now named in a list the governments there published for the
public right to know? LOL at the very idea.

Why would the fascist government in Guatemala or the brutal Pahlavi's
publish a list of their victims?

And yes, there are lists of dead Iranian soldiers from the Iran/Iraq
War, which was a direct consequence of removing Mossadegh in 1953.

Just those two sentences,
contrasting the freedoms of America against the secret murders of Iran
and Gautemala, whoever is in charge there at any one time, makes your
paranoia risible, dear Tommy. Thanks for the giggle.

Hey, Tommy, will you now explain to us how it is all right for a
Roosevelt to do what you already condemned Dulles for allegedly doing?
No, I will not explain that, since I never made that contention. yawn

You didn't condemn Dulles for allegedly overthrowing Mossadeq? Well,
you have since.

More distortion of what I wrote by Mr. Jute. What is it with this guy?

So explain, dear Tommy, why you don't condemn Kermit Roosevelt for
admitting he did (it's all in his autobiography) what you've already
condemned Allen Dulles for allegedly doing?

Stop being a deliberate idiot. I never commented on Kermit Roosevelt one
way or the other.

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for revisionists

How ironic is the above?

Not at all. I have all the facts, and you have nothing but the vapours
of your paranoia.

No Mr. Jute, you can not even conduct a discussion honestly.

Andre Jute
Usually right, but always willing to learn

Uh huh.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
“Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.” - gene daniels