Lance's climbing style....?

On Jul 27, 10:54*pm, Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Jul 28, 1:18*am, hizark21 wrote:



Climbing is all about max speed with minimal expenditure of energy.

dumbass,

actually it's only about max speed.

It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex, especially at the pro/elite level. It's
about pure endurance, effective use of your teammates, ability to
change speed and recover (how much can you go anerobic and still
settle back to your aerobic sustainable level), positioning, etc. Very
often it's about knowing your opponents and what they can do and
can't, and if they're ready to crack. We had tons of this in evidence
at this year's Tour. Look at the situation when Contador attacked and
it resulted in Kloden being dropped. Clearly, Andy Scheck had no idea
that Kloden was ready to blow until Contador went. While I'm sure Andy
would have eventually attacked on his own, by that time, Kloden might
have recovered sufficiently to have handled the attack.

Climbing is also about knowing your pace and not blowing yourself up
to cover moves you know you can pull back. Look at Pelizotti on the
Ventoux. He looked gone, gone, gone, but he knew that the leaders
would yo-yo as they put in tactical moves, and that as long as he
could keep at his limit without blowing, he could recover them. He
nearly made it across to Martin and Garate, and still kept a much
higher finish by knowing his limits.

Maybe Benjo knows, but like TT'ing, has a book been written on
training for climbing in race situations?

Brad Anders

I agree with you, but I was this topic is more about technique.

On Jul 28, 7:59*am, "Paul B. Anders" wrote:
On Jul 27, 10:54*pm, Amit Ghosh wrote:

On Jul 28, 1:18*am, hizark21 wrote:

Climbing is all about max speed with minimal expenditure of energy.

dumbass,

actually it's only about max speed.

It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex, especially at the pro/elite level. It's
about pure endurance, effective use of your teammates, ability to
change speed and recover (how much can you go anerobic and still
settle back to your aerobic sustainable level), positioning, etc. Very
often it's about knowing your opponents and what they can do and
can't, and if they're ready to crack. We had tons of this in evidence
at this year's Tour. Look at the situation when Contador attacked and
it resulted in Kloden being dropped. Clearly, Andy Scheck had no idea
that Kloden was ready to blow until Contador went. While I'm sure Andy
would have eventually attacked on his own, by that time, Kloden might
have recovered sufficiently to have handled the attack.

Climbing is also about knowing your pace and not blowing yourself up
to cover moves you know you can pull back. Look at Pelizotti on the
Ventoux. He looked gone, gone, gone, but he knew that the leaders
would yo-yo as they put in tactical moves, and that as long as he
could keep at his limit without blowing, he could recover them. He
nearly made it across to Martin and Garate, and still kept a much
higher finish by knowing his limits.

Maybe Benjo knows, but like TT'ing, has a book been written on
training for climbing in race situations?

Brad Anders

"Paul B. Anders" wrote:

On Jul 27, 10:54*pm, Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Jul 28, 1:18*am, hizark21 wrote:



Climbing is all about max speed with minimal expenditure of energy.

dumbass,

actually it's only about max speed.

It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex, especially at the pro/elite level. It's
about pure endurance, effective use of your teammates, ability to
change speed and recover (how much can you go anerobic and still
settle back to your aerobic sustainable level), positioning, etc. Very
often it's about knowing your opponents and what they can do and
can't, and if they're ready to crack. We had tons of this in evidence
at this year's Tour. Look at the situation when Contador attacked and
it resulted in Kloden being dropped. Clearly, Andy Scheck had no idea
that Kloden was ready to blow until Contador went. While I'm sure Andy
would have eventually attacked on his own, by that time, Kloden might
have recovered sufficiently to have handled the attack.

Climbing is also about knowing your pace and not blowing yourself up
to cover moves you know you can pull back. Look at Pelizotti on the
Ventoux. He looked gone, gone, gone, but he knew that the leaders
would yo-yo as they put in tactical moves, and that as long as he
could keep at his limit without blowing, he could recover them. He
nearly made it across to Martin and Garate, and still kept a much
higher finish by knowing his limits.


Brad Anders

Be prepared for that polka dot doper Penis-in-mouthi to test positive in
about 4 weeks. You know it's going to happen. Everybody knows it.
Talking about his tactics like he's a genius is going to come back to
haunt you.

Magilla

On Jul 28, 10:59*am, "Paul B. Anders" wrote:

It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex,

dumbass,

it's not. it's about sustained power:weight ratio.

your post reads like the feature story in Bicycling.

those little tricks like changing pace or using low gears can't get
around the fact that how fast a rider climbs is based on two things:
their weight and the power they can sustain over the length of the
climb (which is determined by physical ability and fatigue).

MagillaGorilla wrote:
Be prepared for that polka dot doper Penis-in-mouthi to test positive in
about 4 weeks. You know it's going to happen. Everybody knows it.
Talking about his tactics like he's a genius is going to come back to
haunt you.

you mean riders who dope can't be good tacticians ?

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:09:30 +0200, Donald Munro
wrote:

MagillaGorilla wrote:
Be prepared for that polka dot doper Penis-in-mouthi to test positive in
about 4 weeks. You know it's going to happen. Everybody knows it.
Talking about his tactics like he's a genius is going to come back to
haunt you.

you mean riders who dope can't be good tacticians ?

Did Sammy Sosa worry about ball placement when he hit one out of the
park? Probably not. Over the fence right, left or center is still a
jog around the bases.

But yeah, tactics are still important I'd guess.

Not being a pro rider, I think I see tactics, but can only guess and
listen to some of the chatter in the cars when they put cameras there.

Fans will talk strategy because no one can stop them. People enjoy
watching the Tour for a lot of reasons and who is to say only some of
those reasons are 'valid'? Though it may not be 'chess on a bike',
maybe it is 'checkers', heh.

On Jul 28, 12:53*pm, Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Jul 28, 10:59*am, "Paul B. Anders" wrote:

It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex,

dumbass,

it's not. it's about sustained power:weight ratio.

your post reads like the feature story in Bicycling.

That's just cruel.

those little tricks like changing pace or using low gears can't get
around the fact that how fast a rider climbs is based on two things:
their weight and the power they can sustain over the length of the
climb (which is determined by physical ability and fatigue).

Fundamentally true, but within a group of riders who have very similar
power/weight/endurance (e.g. the better pro climbers, front guys on
the climb in any typical amateur race, fat masters on their weekend
"quest for dominance" climb, etc.), those other factors come into
play. You guys do climb, right? If it was all as you say, essentially
an equation I plug a rider into and see what time comes out for a
climb, I could tell you who was going to be up first on every climb.
What I see instead is a lot of variation due to the type of climb
(length, grade, variability), the actions and positioning before the
climb (e.g. sucking wheel for a half hour before the climb vs.
drilling it on the front), general approach to climbing (e.g. go like
hell at the bottom and die, vs. ramping up the pace throughout, vs.
attacking constantly), and also what's going on in people's heads.
I've known guys who could kill me climbing if we just ground it out,
that I could beat by cracking them at the bottom and making them lose
confidence.

BTW, all this is academic/ancient history for me, I'm a fat ex-
master's now, taking anti-ergogenic drugs that my f'ing cardiologist
prescribes, getting dropped on 5 minute climbs by even fatter guys
that are 10 years older than me. Don't listen to me.

Brad Anders

On Jul 28, 4:26*pm, "Paul B. Anders" wrote:
If it was all as you say, essentially
an equation I plug a rider into and see what time comes out for a
climb, I could tell you who was going to be up first on every climb.

dumbass,

one parameter that's hard to model is fatigue and it's effect on
power, both day to day and over the course of the event.

MagillaGorilla wrote:
"Paul B. Anders" wrote:

On Jul 27, 10:54 pm, Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Jul 28, 1:18 am, hizark21 wrote:



Climbing is all about max speed with minimal expenditure of energy.
dumbass,

actually it's only about max speed.
It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex, especially at the pro/elite level. It's
about pure endurance, effective use of your teammates, ability to
change speed and recover (how much can you go anerobic and still
settle back to your aerobic sustainable level), positioning, etc. Very
often it's about knowing your opponents and what they can do and
can't, and if they're ready to crack. We had tons of this in evidence
at this year's Tour. Look at the situation when Contador attacked and
it resulted in Kloden being dropped. Clearly, Andy Scheck had no idea
that Kloden was ready to blow until Contador went. While I'm sure Andy
would have eventually attacked on his own, by that time, Kloden might
have recovered sufficiently to have handled the attack.

Climbing is also about knowing your pace and not blowing yourself up
to cover moves you know you can pull back. Look at Pelizotti on the
Ventoux. He looked gone, gone, gone, but he knew that the leaders
would yo-yo as they put in tactical moves, and that as long as he
could keep at his limit without blowing, he could recover them. He
nearly made it across to Martin and Garate, and still kept a much
higher finish by knowing his limits.


Brad Anders

Be prepared for that polka dot doper Penis-in-mouthi to test positive in
about 4 weeks. You know it's going to happen. Everybody knows it.
Talking about his tactics like he's a genius is going to come back to
haunt you.

Magilla


I'll keep a note. Will it come back to haunt *you* I wonder?

--

Chris

I am not young enough to know everything.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

Amit Ghosh wrote:

On Jul 28, 10:59*am, "Paul B. Anders" wrote:

It's about a lot more than max speed or minimal expenditure of energy.
Climbing is very complex,

dumbass,

it's not. it's about sustained power:weight ratio.

your post reads like the feature story in Bicycling.

those little tricks like changing pace or using low gears can't get
around the fact that how fast a rider climbs is based on two things:
their weight and the power they can sustain over the length of the
climb (which is determined by physical ability and fatigue).

It's really all determined by genetics. That's why Tylar Farrar or the
Caveman will never climb with the lead group no matter how hard they
train. And that's why all you dumbasses in here who think you're going to
train your way into winning races with your Internets coach are ****ing
stupid as a rock.

Magilla