flat bars vs drops (again)

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been
riding mostly on roads, so the other day I tried out a touring bike with
drop bars. Here are my impressions:

Flat bars;
The flat bars are uncomfortable for longer rides - mine are straight and put
my wrists in an unnatural position. The bar-ends do help a lot but are not
perfect.

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.
Rapid-fire shifters are the best things since sliced bread. Simple.
Effective. Reliable.

Drop bars;
The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition
there are lots of other positions which allow you change body position
slightly as well as hand positions. Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI type
shifters you must move your hands to shift. STI shifters are frighteningly
expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

Summary;
Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to
the cycling world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up
hills -but that's another story). Now we need just a bit of that
developmental energy put toward road bikes, which haven't really changed
that much in several decades. The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and
about time too!) But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting
from the most ergonomic hand position. Perhaps we need an entirely new
handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on the
hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there. Something simple
and bullet-proof.

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon
that most people find most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that
make sense?

Harald wrote:


The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI type
shifters you must move your hands to shift.

I have to move my hands even to shift STI, but I can imagine that people
with bigger hands can shift without moving their hands. Anyway, it
doesn't matter. As Jobst has pointed out, shifting is not a super-fast
time-critical function in bicycling. For my needs, I could do with dt
shifters just fine, but the STI brake hoods fit my palms better.


One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon
that most people find most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that
make sense?

Just because your handlebars are so low that hoods is all you can
comfortably reach don't make the assumption that everyone has the same
setup.

Jan Lindström

"Harald" wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon
that most people find most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't
that
make sense?



Get something like this on your drop bar along with STI; have your cake and
eat it too:

http://www.cambriabike.com/brakes/pa...ake_levers.htm

Chris

"Harald" wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...
Drop bars;
The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition
there are lots of other positions which allow you change body position
slightly as well as hand positions. Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI type
shifters you must move your hands to shift. STI shifters are frighteningly
expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

Summary;
Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to
the cycling world

What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB shifter/brake
lever combos. It's hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road
shifting, but I've done MTB (V-brake/RapidFire) for as little as $15.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:44:04 GMT, "Harald"
wrote:

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.
Rapid-fire shifters are the best things since sliced bread. Simple.
Effective. Reliable.

Dual pivot road brakes are equally powerful and effective as V brakes.
You can't put very wide tires between them, fenders are out, and mud
clearance is little.

If you fall down alot, outboard shifters like STI and Ergo would break
often and your hands would get smashed too.

Harald:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been
riding mostly on roads, so the other day I tried out a touring bike with
drop bars. Here are my impressions:

Flat bars;
The flat bars are uncomfortable for longer rides - mine are straight and put
my wrists in an unnatural position. The bar-ends do help a lot but are not
perfect.

Try a handlebar with a large swept angle, in the 12-16 degrees range.
It makes a lot of difference.

Drop bars;
[.....]
But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting
from the most ergonomic hand position. Perhaps we need an entirely new
handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on the
hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there.

I advocate the same thing, except that I'll rephrase the last part of
your last sentence with ".. with easier braking operation". Shifting is
already available from the hoods. It's the braking that's awkward. I
think the typical dropbar arrangement on most road bikes in Western
countries have not had a needed design change for ergonomic reasons
because a lot of people have gotten used to it with the view that it's a
necessary rite of passage, perhaps in order to achieve the elevated
"road bicycle" user status.

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon
that most people find most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that
make sense?

Of course. Come up with a design and patent it; be prepared to be
shunned by the road racing crowd though, if your design doesn't look
"fast", isn't "aero", doesn't reduce weight, not made of composite or
exotic material, or if it offers too much comfort.

Peter Cole wrote:
What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB shifter/brake
lever combos. It's hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road
shifting,

Er, I picked up some rear-indexed DT shifters for 15 quid (c. $21) just
the other day.
--
David Damerell flcl?

Harald wrote:
I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been
riding mostly on roads, so the other day I tried out a touring bike with
drop bars. Here are my impressions:
You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Well adjusted brakes of any design, on a bike of normal geometry and
with a load of normal weight (yes, yes, Chalo Cholina) can lock the rear
wheel with the rear brake and lift it with the front brake.

How can you have more braking than that?

The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods.
The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods).

Try raising the bars, and with correctly adjusted brakes. I ordinarily
ride in the drops on the flat and downhill, and while less braking is
necessarily uphill, I can brake perfectly well from the hoods.

Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift.

At least 2", with bar-ends. And another 2" back again. Scary stuff!

Summary;
Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to
the cycling world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up
hills -but that's another story).

Except that the development of low gearing was mostly driven by, er,
touring bikes.

that much in several decades. The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and
about time too!)

Who cares?

But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting
from the most ergonomic hand position. Perhaps we need an entirely new
handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on the
hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there.

Have you looked at moustache bars?
--
David Damerell flcl?

This hard core roadie also noticed the less comfy flat bar ergonomics and,
figuring that my wrists like longitudinal hood type grip position, a 20 deg.
sweep bar doubled my MTB endurance. I just don't like barends. ESP and Julie
really do work better than my beloved Campy...bitch, bitch, bitch.
Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Peter Cole wrote in message
news:BAEBb.299145$Dw6.996878@attbi_s02...
"Harald" wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...
Drop bars;
The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In
addition
there are lots of other positions which allow you change body position
slightly as well as hand positions. Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any
force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI
type
shifters you must move your hands to shift. STI shifters are
frighteningly
expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

Summary;
Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development
to
the cycling world

What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB
shifter/brake
lever combos. It's hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road
shifting, but I've done MTB (V-brake/RapidFire) for as little as $15.

David Damerell:

Harald wrote:
I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been
riding mostly on roads, so the other day I tried out a touring bike with
drop bars. Here are my impressions:
You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Well adjusted brakes of any design, on a bike of normal geometry and
with a load of normal weight (yes, yes, Chalo Cholina) can lock the rear
wheel with the rear brake and lift it with the front brake.

How can you have more braking than that?

The issue with dropbars is the awkward grip on the brake levers from the
hoods. Locking up the brakes is not the aim of most braking operations;
modulation is more important. On prolonged descents or on roads that
require frequent slowdowns, the grip one has on brake levers from the
hoods can be much improved. For one thing, the strongest fingers are
closest to the brake lever pivot, which reduces leverage. For another,
it can become uncomfortable to have the webbed bit between your
forefinger and thumb take up load when grasping the hoods; and for yet
another a significant part of the load taken up by your hands when
braking is borne by the bit between your forefinger and thumb, when it
is more comfortable to have it taken up by your palm.

The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods.
The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods).

Try raising the bars, and with correctly adjusted brakes. I ordinarily
ride in the drops on the flat and downhill, and while less braking is
necessarily uphill, I can brake perfectly well from the hoods.

You've just gotten used to it; it says nothing for the awkward design
which can be improved. Your style of riding isn't typical; more people
ride with hands on the hoods most of the time.

You're saying that you operate the brakes quite easily from the drops,
and that's where your hands are in the best position for maximum
leverage with the brake levers. This is not so when your hands are on
the hoods.