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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/7/2018 10:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 7:16:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote: My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon. Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep going and going and going... And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box) either :-) My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45. Hub dynos can be a significant expense, but they are not the only choice. One does not always need their advantages. My touring bike and our tandem have bottle dynos with good B&M headlights. Those bottle dynos were free, decades ago. The one on my touring bike is occasionally starting to rattle a bit (I think a bearing is going) but it's usually perfect. When I get annoyed enough, I'll replace it with another free one from my junk box. My wife's touring bike and two of our folding bikes have roller dynos. They work especially well for folders because they are compact and well protected. I bought one of those roller units brand new in about 1979. I think another was bought used, and I know one was given to me. So overall, my dyno expenses are minimal. Granted, bottle dynos might slip in heavy rain if not well adjusted. Rollers will slip in mud. But those shortcomings are unimportant to most cyclists. Jay, I think your riding conditions are at the far right of some bell curve. You do fast sport riding over long distances, you commute almost every day in all weather, you commute over tough hills and dirt paths, you ride in dense traffic, you maintain a stable of bikes... Very few cyclists do all those things. Very few really need the high efficiency and extreme reliability of a hub dyno. Very few need multi-hundred-lumen headlights. I think almost all cyclists would do fine with an old-tech dyno and a good (not top-of-the-line) B&M headlight. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg. And it wouldn't require hacker-style electronic repair in three years. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/7/2018 1:06 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/02/18 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote: My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon. Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep going and going and going... I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of CYOs[1] and a recently defunct Flat-S.Â* Tbf the Flat S is around 7 years old. [1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof imho. I had one off-brand dyno LED headlight quit. Oddly enough, the LED itself died while the light was less than a year old. The company had stopped selling it - gee, I wonder why? - so they gave me a battery light in exchange. Just for kicks, I replaced the dyno light's LED myself and it still works. But I'm not qualified to comment on waterproofing of Cyo lights. I have a couple, but they're mounted under my handlebar bags. They don't get very wet even on the unusual occasions when I ride at night in the rain. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#13
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 8:13:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/7/2018 10:22 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 7:16:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote: My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon. Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep going and going and going... And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box) either :-) My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45. Hub dynos can be a significant expense, but they are not the only choice. One does not always need their advantages. My touring bike and our tandem have bottle dynos with good B&M headlights. Those bottle dynos were free, decades ago. The one on my touring bike is occasionally starting to rattle a bit (I think a bearing is going) but it's usually perfect. When I get annoyed enough, I'll replace it with another free one from my junk box. My wife's touring bike and two of our folding bikes have roller dynos. They work especially well for folders because they are compact and well protected. I bought one of those roller units brand new in about 1979. I think another was bought used, and I know one was given to me. So overall, my dyno expenses are minimal. Granted, bottle dynos might slip in heavy rain if not well adjusted. Rollers will slip in mud. But those shortcomings are unimportant to most cyclists. Jay, I think your riding conditions are at the far right of some bell curve. You do fast sport riding over long distances, you commute almost every day in all weather, you commute over tough hills and dirt paths, you ride in dense traffic, you maintain a stable of bikes... Very few cyclists do all those things. Very few really need the high efficiency and extreme reliability of a hub dyno. Very few need multi-hundred-lumen headlights. I think almost all cyclists would do fine with an old-tech dyno and a good (not top-of-the-line) B&M headlight. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg. And it wouldn't require hacker-style electronic repair in three years. I intend to go back to a dyno on my commuter, and if I had a single transportation bike, it would have a dyno. Also, my Urban 800 is under-powered for heavy rain, and the battery life at full output is pitiful. For stormy nights, I'd use something with a higher output or just cope with riding by Braille. I don't think my riding pattern is unusual in this city, except for the stable of bikes thing and the fact that the new bikes have odd-ball axle and fork crown issues. If I had not gotten a free replacement CX frame for my commuter, I would have rebuilt the commuter on something different -- maybe even one of the Somas like the Fogcutter, which is a really cool frame with a threaded BB, discs and all the braze-ons one could hope for. -- Jay Beattie. |
#14
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/7/2018 7:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:
snip My regular glass bulb lamps... I read about those in my history book. |
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/7/2018 7:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
snip My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45. Now, the battery life on the Urban sucks, and forgetting to charge is a reality -- so it's not as convenient as a dyno light, but I can switch it around between bikes. I've been switching between two bikes for commuting lately due to mechanical issues. One bike has a through-axle and the other doesn't, so switching dyno lights would be impossible. I'd need a dyno hub with 15mm through axle which, on its own, can cost as much as $200. I would also have to get a handlebar mount since there is no through hole on the crown of either of my disc bikes. I miss that and once I get a bar mount, I'll go back to using my Luxos B on the commuter, but I'll also use my little flea-watt back up blinky on the bar. I think low watt flashers or pulsing (rather than bursting flash-bulb) flashers are good in urban bicycle and car traffic. When the Lezyne battery pack failed (and it failed completely, not just lower capacity), we were about to go out on a ride. I gave my identical light to the spousal unit, and I relied on my dynamo light with hub dynamo. It was a day ride so it was no big deal, but there was no way anyone would want to be out on that unlit MUP at night with only a dynamo light. It's very dark with a lot of twists and turns, and ups and downs. I'd estimate that about 70% of the riders on the MUP had DRLs going. The dynamo light on my road bike is not a high-end dynamo light (that's on my Dahon folder), but it is the only commercially available dynamo light with a flashing DRL. It's enough to stay legal and be seen https://www.planetbike.com/store/blaze-dynamo-sl-bike-headlight.html. And yes, adequate dynamo lights are very expensive, not just because of the light itself, but because of the high cost of a wheel with a dynamo hub. One advantage of the Oculus light from Barry is that it uses standard size button-top Li-Ion batteries https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91CXQCE95lL._SL1500_.jpg that are easily user replaceable . With the Lezyne, you could carry some extra battery packs but you really would not want to be taking the light apart to change the battery while on a ride. It's very water-proof with O-rings in three places that you'd have to get back in place, and one of the screws holding it together is a very small Torx screw. |
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 06:38:29 -0800, sms
wrote: On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Notice that his version: https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/ is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected. Tenergy has several different 18650 cells at different capacities. Yes, that's possible. I guess I should have gotten these 9800maH 18650 cells: https://www.walmart.com/ip/8-pcs-Universal-18650-3-7V-9800-mAh-Rechargeable-Lithium-Batteries-Tip-Main-Batery-Cell-For-Flashlight-Torch-Camera/866646151. 9800mAH and only $1 each. But I'm waiting for the new 10,000 mAH cells. I have some Belchfire brand 5800 ma-hr cells that cost me about $1 on eBay. At 1.5A, they deliver 890 ma-hr. http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg My theory is that the actual capacity is inversely proportional to the advertised capacity. No need to wait for 10K LiIon cells. By merely misusing an existing overpriced product: http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2847/.f you can reduce or eliminate the losses from cell contact resistance sufficiently to deliver a 10K LiIon cell. Only $150/7.4mL. It should have about the same performance improvement as soldering the battery contact spring in a LiIon flashlight, but without the bother of learning how to solder properly: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=flashlight+solder+spring&oq=flas hlight+solder+spring Admittedly, such performance enhancements are most useful for high power lighting, but if only 10% of the bicycle lighting sales predictions are credible, we will soon be riding around with megalumen headlights. I'm anxiously waiting for a copper or brass bicycle light (to further reduce resistive losses in the aluminum package): https://www.google.com/search?q=copper+flashlight&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=brass+flashlight&tbm=isch After those, we can try a silver plated bicycle light. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#17
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms wrote: My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder it directly to the printed circuit board. I don't see a problem. If your wife used the light every day for about 2 years, that would be 730 charge cycles. That's about the correct lifetime for a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). See table 2: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries Not nearly every day. I'd estimate about 200 total charge/discharge cycles. Something failed in the battery pack because it wasn't like the operating time was less than when new, the pack would not charge at all. Charging the batteries in parallel with a 2A USB charger is also about right. For two alleged 2800mA-hr cells in parallel, that would be about 0.35C charge which is quite safe. I've found that the cells that die quickly are usually helped along by a charge circuit that overcharges the battery. 4.2v should be the absolute maximum. LiIon loses about 10% of it's capacity during the initial rapid discharge from 4.2 to 4.0V. While I don't like losing the 10%, the battery will last much longer if only charged to 4.0v. Charging to 3.92v yields the best compromise between two failure mechanisms (electrolyte oxidation and growing crud on the anode). See "summary" section: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die The charge voltage was correct. And of course the protection circuit in he pack ensures that the charge voltage doesn't exceed 4.2V, regardless of what the charging circuit voltage actually is. It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH. Seems rather high. Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight discharge rate. The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which also seems a bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal 3.7V/battery, that's: 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell. Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at: 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A This is the battery in the original pack: http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally would not allow discharge below 2.8V. The closest I could find on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6. Notice that his version: https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/ is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected. Do any manufacturers not lie? It's a matter of degree. Tenergy is an industrial supplier of batteries with a real building in Fremont, and not like buying no-name batteries on Aliexpress. Ready to buy a battery discharge tester http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php and a lux meter? https://www.ebay.com/itm/391973339920 https://www.ebay.com/itm/401324425264 I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it in, and closed it up. Seems to work fine now. Yeah, for how long will it work? Dig out your digital volts-guesser and measure the EoC (end of charge) voltage. If it's over 4.2v, that may be why it died early. Also, see how long it will run. You don't want it going out prematurely on the initial test run. Maybe carry a 2nd headlight for the initial testing. The charge voltage from the plug that connects to the battery was 4.19V. I checked that before I ordered a new battery because I thought that the problem with the light might have been with the charging circuitry. The measured lumens by mtbr.com of the Deca Drive XXL was 1390, so they were not using chilumens https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chilumen, and there was minimal lunmenflation https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lumenflation. This morning I put the light on the maximum setting and it ran for just about exactly two hours before it stepped down the intensity. 5200 mAH [rated] 3.7 V [rated] 19.24 Watt-Hours [calculated] 2.0 Hours [measured] 9.62 Watts [calculated] 2.6 Amps [calculated] 1390 lumens [measured by mtbr.com] 144.5 lumens/watt [calculated] 3 LEDs 48.2 lumens/LED [calculated] Of course the reality is that the batteries were not fully discharged when it dropped the output, so the lumens per watt was likely quite a bit higher. I like the design of the Lezyne and how they use 3 LEDs to mitigate thermal issues, as well as to give a more usable beam pattern that includes sufficient side illumination. Definitely NOT StVZO https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stvzo. What some people don't understand is that optics are very important in bicycle lights where you are dealing with a limited amount of battery or dynamo power. The Lezyne also shows you whether you're connected to a low-power USB port (500mA) or a 2A USB port. The charging LED is green for low power, blue for high power. You don't need their 2A charger, any 2A charger will do. This is the one I use: https://www.frys.com/product/8335977. |
#18
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 07/02/18 16:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2018 12:06 AM, Tosspot wrote: On 07/02/18 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote: My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon. Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep going and going and going... I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of CYOs[1] and a recently defunct Flat-S.Â* Tbf the Flat S is around 7 years old. [1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof imho. My regular glass bulb lamps go 6~8 years between bulb failure in daily use. YMMV That ain't bad, and ime I'd expect a good few years from a filament bulb. I like LEDs because they are bright, and take little power. |
#19
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
"Joerg" wrote in message ... On 2018-02-06 13:07, Ian Field wrote: "sms" wrote in message news My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder it directly to the printed circuit board. It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH. The closest I could find on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6. I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it in, and closed it up. Seems to work fine now. My favourite is recycle bin rescues - with a £0 price tag; life expectancy isn't something to get traumatised about. Most laptop packs are 2 or 3P-3S, you can split them up as series or parallel pairs A/R. In many areas they won't let you dive into recycling bins. You'd almost have to lie in wait, dart out and yell "Yo, don't hand over that laptop just yet!". Otherwise when it's in there it's in there and not coming back out. Most don't take any notice - one that said no has the bin next to customer service desk, reconnaissance on the way in - anything interest and i make use of the seating and wait for the clerk to nip out. |
#20
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:23:23 -0800, sms
wrote: This is the battery in the original pack: http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf 4.3V max seems rather high and unsafe. I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally would not allow discharge below 2.8V. 0V is an important clue. The undervoltage CID (current interrupt device) protection of the battery has kicked in and disconnected the positive terminal. How to recover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmu3U7tndA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w3Tv1Jg0ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BTNrJ0C_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OKz3LpNHRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deDP7Q3v3xA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOi0hepEtYo I see this 0V problem quite often on brand new clone laptop battery packs. I use a small jewelers screwdriver to recover. I don't know exactly why the CID tripped, but my guess(tm) is that the BMS (battery management system) has a low voltage trip point BELOW the voltage of where the CID trips. The BMS probably has an accurate low voltage disconnect voltage of 3.00v±0.1V. However, the CID on the battery is a mechanical device which can vary. I do not currently have numbers on it's trip voltage but if it's over 3.00V, the CID will trip before the BMS. Do any manufacturers not lie? Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens. It's a matter of degree. Tenergy is an industrial supplier of batteries with a real building in Fremont, and not like buying no-name batteries on Aliexpress. Yep. I have quite a few Tenergy battery packs and chargers mostly purchased from HobbyKing. Two of the really simple chargers blew up and killed some battery packs. The batteries have been fine. All of them met their capacity specs (tested at 0.2C). The charge voltage from the plug that connects to the battery was 4.19V. I checked that before I ordered a new battery because I thought that the problem with the light might have been with the charging circuitry. The BMS overvoltage disconnects the battery at 4.28V±0.025V so you're probably ok with the charger. I prefer a lower voltage for the EoC in order to get a longer battery life. This morning I put the light on the maximum setting and it ran for just about exactly two hours before it stepped down the intensity. 5200 mAH [rated] 3.7 V [rated] 19.24 Watt-Hours [calculated] 2.0 Hours [measured] 9.62 Watts [calculated] 2.6 Amps [calculated] 1390 lumens [measured by mtbr.com] 144.5 lumens/watt [calculated] 3 LEDs 48.2 lumens/LED [calculated] Of course the reality is that the batteries were not fully discharged when it dropped the output, so the lumens per watt was likely quite a bit higher. Those numbers look quite sane. The 144.5 lumens/watt seems a bit high, especially when measured through a lens, but are not outrageously inflated. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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