Front cracking noise

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:32:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/16/2019 1:21 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 21:41:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/15/2019 8:23 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 01:06:22 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

The fact that aluminum is used from the generating plant right up to your
doorstep indicates that aluminum can be used safely for high voltage, high
current circuits. However, either because the home aluminum wiring systems
weren't properly designed, or because installers didn't install them
properly, they caused a disproportionate number of house fires, which
essentially resulting in aluminum house wiring disappearing from the
market.

Ask any electrical inspector how many times he has found a coin
inserted in the old screw type fuse blocks, or oversize fuse wire in
the even older type of fuses. I have even seen a piece of bent wire
inserted in a fuse box that was intended to prevent a conventional
"breaker" from tripping.

There have always been, and will always be, totally stupid homeowner
mistakes. That's not the source of the risk with aluminum wiring, except
perhaps in the hands of an incompetent do-it-yourselfer. Especially when
it was first popularized, safe use practices were apparently just beyond
the skill set of the typical electrician.

And these days, fixing the problem is very costly. Our good friends (now
living in a distant state) were trying to sell their condo, one with
aluminum wiring. It added greatly to the complication and expense.

Or go to any housing supply store and see the "extension cords" that
allow 6 or 8 devices to be plugged into a single wall socket.

I think that's much less of a problem than it used to be. LED lights
draw far less current than incandescents. Modern TVs, stereos etc. are
also much less current-hungry.

If you don't plug two toasters and a hair dryer into the same circuit as
your vacuum cleaner, you'll probably be OK. And if you're not OK, the
breaker will trip, assuming you haven't disabled it.

But a great many people just don't understand. "If the breaker blows
it is the fault of the breaker!"

I would use my wife as an example. A really good cook, took care of
the kid well, watches the pennies, and has, literally, no concept of
electrical loads. By screaming and hollering I've convinced her not to
connect more then one device to one outlet but I suspect that way down
deep inside she considers that as simply some sort of male fetish.

As I've noticed that other people's wives seem to also have the idea
that extension cords with many receptacle sockets are a great
invention I doubt that my wife is unique :-)

Well, next to my favorite reclining chair, I've fitted a six-outlet
conversion over the two outlet receptacle. Here's what gets plugged into
it: a floor lamp with four separate bulbs (55 W total), a laptop
computer's charger (5 W) and occasionally a cell phone charger (6 W). So
about 0.6 Amps. There's something similar going on over at the
TV/stereo/DVD cabinet, using a power strip. It might top out at about 3
or 4 Amps, as a guess.

As opposed to my wife's kitchen where she had two refrigerators, a
microwave, toaster, mixer and two other oddities plugged into one
extension cord :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:36:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/16/2019 2:08 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 21:46:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/15/2019 7:38 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 9:08:29 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers


I wouldn't buy a house with aluminum wiring, and yet most of the power
system up to your house is all aluminum wires.

According to a number of studies done here in Canada a house with aluminium wiring is 55 times more likely to have a fire than one with copper wiring. Therefore, NO! I would NOT buy a house with aluminium wiring.

Cheers

You mean that a house in Canada "code wired" with aluminum wire is
more likely to burn down due to the wiring than a house "code wired"
with copper wires?

I believe that is the case, from what I've read and heard.

It seems really strange. #8 wire @60 degrees(C) can carry 40 amps if
copper and 30 amps if aluminum, #4 copper = 70 amps versus aluminum at
55, and so on. One would assume that if the proper sized breakers were
used that amperage would be restricted to safe levels.

Again, the issue isn't the flat-out carrying capacity of the wires
themselves. It's the accidental increase of resistance at the
connections. That's where the temperatures can rise and get out of control.

Copper wire isn't immune to this stuff. My mother's house once had a
dangerously hot outlet, the one serving her refrigerator. It was scary
enough that she called the fire department. But the problem is far, far
less common with copper wire.

Not to get into a log and drawn out discussion but as I said, I once
worked as an electrician on an air base in Thailand where much, maybe
most, of the exterior circuits were aluminum wire. I find it strange
that none of the connections, except for one, ever gave any problems.
The one problem was a direct aluminum wire connection to a pole
mounted transformer with copper terminals. Unfortunately the bloke
that supervised that job had quit so they couldn't fire him :-(

My point is that there are proper methods of terminating aluminum and
where used result in low loss connections and the method as, at least
in my experience, well know to professional electricians.

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 15:40:04 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. Slocomb writes:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:01:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the
hub I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had
aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers

You are being a little ridiculous, aren't you. All commercial wiring
used in the U.S. is rated for it's voltage and amperage carrying
capacity. Do you actually believe that the aluminum wire makers have
somehow coherence the rating authorities into over rating aluminum
wire?

Or perhaps the answer is that a large number of ignorant people
overload their home electrical circuits and then blame the resulting
fire on the wires?

The real problem, at least in the US, was using the wrong wire nuts,
switches, and so forth. Corrosion built up in the connections,
increasing resistance, and eventually sometimes causing fires.

As I pointed out in another post to Frank, in my personal experience,
professional electricians are well aware of problems that may arise
with the use of aluminum wire and how to overcome the problems and the
necessary materials and supplies are readily available. Even in 3rd
world countries.

I lived in an apartment building for years with aluminum wiring, nothing
ever caught on fire.



--
Cheers,
John B.

On Saturday, February 16, 2019 at 2:51:09 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:
When I was figuring out what to do with my Shimano dynamo hub I looked
up the instructions. Shimano claimed that only one bearing was
serviceable, which led to speculation that there was something
mysterious about the other one. There isn't -- it's just that taking
the whole thing apart without breaking a wire is hard, and someone
judged it better not to suggest doing so.

That's pretty much what happened to me with my Joule hub. I was told it was "not serviceable". That made it a sort of challenge. Plus, I had a couple other identical hubs as back-ups, so I had nothing to lose. As noted in the description of the overhaul, I *did* rip the wire and was lucky enough to be able to repair it. Once I knew how it was put together, it was easy to do it again without damaging the wire.

I also seem to remember the same thing about the Shimano hub (or what I heard about it)... it was 8 years ago. But the exploded diagram I had ("Image 12") made the output side bearing seem "mysterious" as you put it. That's what led me to assume (maybe wrongly) that it was a cartridge.

On 2/16/2019 8:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:32:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/16/2019 1:21 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 21:41:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/15/2019 8:23 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 01:06:22 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

The fact that aluminum is used from the generating plant right up to your
doorstep indicates that aluminum can be used safely for high voltage, high
current circuits. However, either because the home aluminum wiring systems
weren't properly designed, or because installers didn't install them
properly, they caused a disproportionate number of house fires, which
essentially resulting in aluminum house wiring disappearing from the
market.

Ask any electrical inspector how many times he has found a coin
inserted in the old screw type fuse blocks, or oversize fuse wire in
the even older type of fuses. I have even seen a piece of bent wire
inserted in a fuse box that was intended to prevent a conventional
"breaker" from tripping.

There have always been, and will always be, totally stupid homeowner
mistakes. That's not the source of the risk with aluminum wiring, except
perhaps in the hands of an incompetent do-it-yourselfer. Especially when
it was first popularized, safe use practices were apparently just beyond
the skill set of the typical electrician.

And these days, fixing the problem is very costly. Our good friends (now
living in a distant state) were trying to sell their condo, one with
aluminum wiring. It added greatly to the complication and expense.

Or go to any housing supply store and see the "extension cords" that
allow 6 or 8 devices to be plugged into a single wall socket.

I think that's much less of a problem than it used to be. LED lights
draw far less current than incandescents. Modern TVs, stereos etc. are
also much less current-hungry.

If you don't plug two toasters and a hair dryer into the same circuit as
your vacuum cleaner, you'll probably be OK. And if you're not OK, the
breaker will trip, assuming you haven't disabled it.

But a great many people just don't understand. "If the breaker blows
it is the fault of the breaker!"

I would use my wife as an example. A really good cook, took care of
the kid well, watches the pennies, and has, literally, no concept of
electrical loads. By screaming and hollering I've convinced her not to
connect more then one device to one outlet but I suspect that way down
deep inside she considers that as simply some sort of male fetish.

As I've noticed that other people's wives seem to also have the idea
that extension cords with many receptacle sockets are a great
invention I doubt that my wife is unique :-)

Well, next to my favorite reclining chair, I've fitted a six-outlet
conversion over the two outlet receptacle. Here's what gets plugged into
it: a floor lamp with four separate bulbs (55 W total), a laptop
computer's charger (5 W) and occasionally a cell phone charger (6 W). So
about 0.6 Amps. There's something similar going on over at the
TV/stereo/DVD cabinet, using a power strip. It might top out at about 3
or 4 Amps, as a guess.

As opposed to my wife's kitchen where she had two refrigerators, a
microwave, toaster, mixer and two other oddities plugged into one
extension cord :-)

Yow.

Well, I guess it might work if she runs no more than one at a time...



--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/16/2019 8:20 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:36:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Again, the issue isn't the flat-out carrying capacity of the wires
themselves. It's the accidental increase of resistance at the
connections. That's where the temperatures can rise and get out of control.

Copper wire isn't immune to this stuff. My mother's house once had a
dangerously hot outlet, the one serving her refrigerator. It was scary
enough that she called the fire department. But the problem is far, far
less common with copper wire.

Not to get into a log and drawn out discussion but as I said, I once
worked as an electrician on an air base in Thailand where much, maybe
most, of the exterior circuits were aluminum wire. I find it strange
that none of the connections, except for one, ever gave any problems.
The one problem was a direct aluminum wire connection to a pole
mounted transformer with copper terminals. Unfortunately the bloke
that supervised that job had quit so they couldn't fire him :-(

My point is that there are proper methods of terminating aluminum and
where used result in low loss connections and the method as, at least
in my experience, well know to professional electricians.

Interesting about the connection at the transformer.

My kid had mysterious electrical problems at her house. Lights
occasionally flickered, usually when it was windy. Her microwave's clock
constantly needed re-setting. But only certain circuits in her house
were affected. Of course, I looked for problems as far back as the
breaker box, but things looked fine.

Turned out one of the hot leads had a bad connection at the pole mounted
transformer. The utility company didn't check that well enough until her
new neighbor happened to stop by when they were working and say "My
house has exactly the same problems." Everything on the other hot
circuit worked perfectly, which gave the workers the clue to check that
connection.

But speaking of weird electrical problems: Their screened-in porch
(which someone added after their house was built) had a scary problem.
Someone touched one of the metal outlet covers and got a buzz. It took
me a LONG time to find that fault.

Turned out it was a double fault. First, the ground wire had come
disconnected inside one box feeding that porch. Second, one of the hot
wires to an outlet had come loose and was touching the inside of the
junction box, making all the connected boxes hot. The lack of a proper
ground prevented the breaker from tripping.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 12:00:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/16/2019 8:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:32:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/16/2019 1:21 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 21:41:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/15/2019 8:23 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 01:06:22 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

The fact that aluminum is used from the generating plant right up to your
doorstep indicates that aluminum can be used safely for high voltage, high
current circuits. However, either because the home aluminum wiring systems
weren't properly designed, or because installers didn't install them
properly, they caused a disproportionate number of house fires, which
essentially resulting in aluminum house wiring disappearing from the
market.

Ask any electrical inspector how many times he has found a coin
inserted in the old screw type fuse blocks, or oversize fuse wire in
the even older type of fuses. I have even seen a piece of bent wire
inserted in a fuse box that was intended to prevent a conventional
"breaker" from tripping.

There have always been, and will always be, totally stupid homeowner
mistakes. That's not the source of the risk with aluminum wiring, except
perhaps in the hands of an incompetent do-it-yourselfer. Especially when
it was first popularized, safe use practices were apparently just beyond
the skill set of the typical electrician.

And these days, fixing the problem is very costly. Our good friends (now
living in a distant state) were trying to sell their condo, one with
aluminum wiring. It added greatly to the complication and expense.

Or go to any housing supply store and see the "extension cords" that
allow 6 or 8 devices to be plugged into a single wall socket.

I think that's much less of a problem than it used to be. LED lights
draw far less current than incandescents. Modern TVs, stereos etc. are
also much less current-hungry.

If you don't plug two toasters and a hair dryer into the same circuit as
your vacuum cleaner, you'll probably be OK. And if you're not OK, the
breaker will trip, assuming you haven't disabled it.

But a great many people just don't understand. "If the breaker blows
it is the fault of the breaker!"

I would use my wife as an example. A really good cook, took care of
the kid well, watches the pennies, and has, literally, no concept of
electrical loads. By screaming and hollering I've convinced her not to
connect more then one device to one outlet but I suspect that way down
deep inside she considers that as simply some sort of male fetish.

As I've noticed that other people's wives seem to also have the idea
that extension cords with many receptacle sockets are a great
invention I doubt that my wife is unique :-)

Well, next to my favorite reclining chair, I've fitted a six-outlet
conversion over the two outlet receptacle. Here's what gets plugged into
it: a floor lamp with four separate bulbs (55 W total), a laptop
computer's charger (5 W) and occasionally a cell phone charger (6 W). So
about 0.6 Amps. There's something similar going on over at the
TV/stereo/DVD cabinet, using a power strip. It might top out at about 3
or 4 Amps, as a guess.

As opposed to my wife's kitchen where she had two refrigerators, a
microwave, toaster, mixer and two other oddities plugged into one
extension cord :-)

Yow.

Well, I guess it might work if she runs no more than one at a time...

And you a married man? The reason for having all those implements is
to use them :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 12:10:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/16/2019 8:20 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:36:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Again, the issue isn't the flat-out carrying capacity of the wires
themselves. It's the accidental increase of resistance at the
connections. That's where the temperatures can rise and get out of control.

Copper wire isn't immune to this stuff. My mother's house once had a
dangerously hot outlet, the one serving her refrigerator. It was scary
enough that she called the fire department. But the problem is far, far
less common with copper wire.

Not to get into a log and drawn out discussion but as I said, I once
worked as an electrician on an air base in Thailand where much, maybe
most, of the exterior circuits were aluminum wire. I find it strange
that none of the connections, except for one, ever gave any problems.
The one problem was a direct aluminum wire connection to a pole
mounted transformer with copper terminals. Unfortunately the bloke
that supervised that job had quit so they couldn't fire him :-(

My point is that there are proper methods of terminating aluminum and
where used result in low loss connections and the method as, at least
in my experience, well know to professional electricians.

Interesting about the connection at the transformer.

My kid had mysterious electrical problems at her house. Lights
occasionally flickered, usually when it was windy. Her microwave's clock
constantly needed re-setting. But only certain circuits in her house
were affected. Of course, I looked for problems as far back as the
breaker box, but things looked fine.

Turned out one of the hot leads had a bad connection at the pole mounted
transformer. The utility company didn't check that well enough until her
new neighbor happened to stop by when they were working and say "My
house has exactly the same problems." Everything on the other hot
circuit worked perfectly, which gave the workers the clue to check that
connection.

But speaking of weird electrical problems: Their screened-in porch
(which someone added after their house was built) had a scary problem.
Someone touched one of the metal outlet covers and got a buzz. It took
me a LONG time to find that fault.

Turned out it was a double fault. First, the ground wire had come
disconnected inside one box feeding that porch. Second, one of the hot
wires to an outlet had come loose and was touching the inside of the
junction box, making all the connected boxes hot. The lack of a proper
ground prevented the breaker from tripping.

When I was working in Thailand we had a problem at the rocket assembly
shop in that the ground was carrying current. We dug and delved and
never did solved that problem. The A.F. finally left and the base
reverted to the Thais and I suppose that they still have the problem.

--
Cheers,
John B.

Sepp Ruf writes:

Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Worst: semi-informed and busy making the world a better place.

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an
issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much
sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight
when they use iron magnets?

They use rare earth permanent magnets for the stator, and a soft iron
core for the rotor. I don't really know why Shimano uses aluminum, nor,
I suspect, does anyone in this discussion.

Just investigate which series Shimano first switched from Cu to Al. It
wasn't the cheaper 20 or 30 series, but the 70+ lines that had to shed some
weight, NOT cost, to try to rival the SON. So, as always, it's al(l) the
weight weenies' fault.

I believe you're right. IIRC the main difference between the 3N72
(which I have) and the more expensive 3N80 was an aluminum axle. Didn't
seem much of a feature to me. These hubs are marketed towards those
that have some interest in performance, and selling hubs north of a
pound in that market is a challenge. I suspect that this is a game of
specsmanship: weight is much easier to measure and simpler to present
than efficiency, which depends on speed and load.

--

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 12:00:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Well, I guess it might work if she runs no more than one at a time...

Reminds me of church camp a little over sixty years ago. When we made
breakfast, we had to check with the folks in the apartment below
before we plugged in our toaster. If both groups used heat-producing
appliances at the same time, the fuse would blow.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/