IRD Freewheels : Worth 3x the cost ??

"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:

"Chalo" wrote in message
...
| Ryan Cousineau wrote:

#1: Non-cassette reasonably-priced hubs break axles frequently. So
frequently that they're simply impractical for most people who ride a bike a
lot. Broken rear axles are the biggest issue we have with less-expensive
bikes. They're spec'd with such hubs to save a few dollars, which generally
works if the assumption that the bike isn't going to be ridden much holds
true.

I cannot agree at all with this statement, unless perhaps bike parts
took a deep dive for the worse between 1996 and 2001 (when I was out
of the game due to a severe accident, which claimed a tooth, finally,
in 2005.)

My experience was as follows :

- 10 years riding raleigh grand prix. bent axle. not broken.
- 8 years riding sekai 2500 (early shimano 600 hubs). no problems.
- 11 years riding a trek 500 (sansin gyromaster hub). no problems.

- lots of years riding bikes with italian parts whose name cannot
be spoken (riding occasional club rides) according to mike
jacoubowsky.

- 3 months riding a bike where the derailleur hit the sprocket in
1st gear, and while riding up a 10% grade I FINALLY, in 2007,
broke an axle !!

Anyway, in my experience, 120mm and 126mm road bike axles JUST DONT
break. Your mileage may vary on mountain bikes.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

"Donald Gillies" wrote in message
...

Anyway, in my experience, 120mm and 126mm road bike axles JUST DONT
break. Your mileage may vary on mountain bikes.

And tourers. And utility bikes.

If you're just talking about racing type single road bikes, then that's
probably ok.

cheers,
clive

| My experience was as follows :
|
| - 10 years riding raleigh grand prix. bent axle. not broken.
| - 8 years riding sekai 2500 (early shimano 600 hubs). no problems.
| - 11 years riding a trek 500 (sansin gyromaster hub). no problems.
|
| - lots of years riding bikes with italian parts whose name cannot
| be spoken (riding occasional club rides) according to mike
| jacoubowsky.
|
| - 3 months riding a bike where the derailleur hit the sprocket in
| 1st gear, and while riding up a 10% grade I FINALLY, in 2007,
| broke an axle !!
|
| Anyway, in my experience, 120mm and 126mm road bike axles JUST DONT
| break. Your mileage may vary on mountain bikes.
|
| - Don Gillies
| San Diego, CA

*Your* experience. Not shared by any shop you're likely to ask. The axles I
broke were 120mm locknut/locknut dimesion (which is, what, 132mm overall
length?). Campagnolo. 2 of them during the days I raced. I also broke a 126
further down the road. Not mountain bikes. Road bikes. Must have been caused
by a pretty crappy out-of-alignment Cinelli that I used (which I made sure
the dropouts were perfectly aligned, because that was one of the theories
back in the day for why axles broke).

In the shop, we find and replace many such broken axles. Typically the
customer doesn't even know they're broken, because things are held in place
by the quick release. They come in because the wheel's out of true. OK, I
lied. We typically don't replace such axles in hubs anymore, because the
customer will usually say it's their 2nd or 3rd time they've "broken the
wheel." So we sell them a cassette-hub wheel and voila, no more broken rear
wheels.

Spend some time working in a shop, and you'll quickly discover that your
experiences are far better than average. Hopefully that goes for other
things in your life as well!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com




"Donald Gillies" wrote in message
...
| "Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:
|
| "Chalo" wrote in message
| ...
| | Ryan Cousineau wrote:
|
| #1: Non-cassette reasonably-priced hubs break axles frequently. So
| frequently that they're simply impractical for most people who ride a
bike a
| lot. Broken rear axles are the biggest issue we have with less-expensive
| bikes. They're spec'd with such hubs to save a few dollars, which
generally
| works if the assumption that the bike isn't going to be ridden much holds
| true.
|
| I cannot agree at all with this statement, unless perhaps bike parts
| took a deep dive for the worse between 1996 and 2001 (when I was out
| of the game due to a severe accident, which claimed a tooth, finally,
| in 2005.)
|
| My experience was as follows :
|
| - 10 years riding raleigh grand prix. bent axle. not broken.
| - 8 years riding sekai 2500 (early shimano 600 hubs). no problems.
| - 11 years riding a trek 500 (sansin gyromaster hub). no problems.
|
| - lots of years riding bikes with italian parts whose name cannot
| be spoken (riding occasional club rides) according to mike
| jacoubowsky.
|
| - 3 months riding a bike where the derailleur hit the sprocket in
| 1st gear, and while riding up a 10% grade I FINALLY, in 2007,
| broke an axle !!
|
| Anyway, in my experience, 120mm and 126mm road bike axles JUST DONT
| break. Your mileage may vary on mountain bikes.
|
| - Don Gillies
| San Diego, CA

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
...

Spend some time working in a shop, and you'll quickly discover that your
experiences are far better than average.

To be fair, I reckon a shop will tend to see worse than average, because
people bring stuff to you when it is bust. But I still reckon cassette hubs
are nicer for reasons including the axle breaking thing.

(one other important one for me is the ease of sprocket removal - anyone
who's tried to remove a freewheel used on hills on a tandem will know what I
mean here :-) )

cheers,
clive

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

The axles I
broke were 120mm locknut/locknut dimesion (which is, what, 132mm overall
length?). Campagnolo. 2 of them during the days I raced. I also broke a 126
further down the road. Not mountain bikes. Road bikes. Must have been caused
by a pretty crappy out-of-alignment Cinelli that I used (which I made sure
the dropouts were perfectly aligned, because that was one of the theories
back in the day for why axles broke).

I've been able to make 3/8" and 10mm threaded axles work for myself by
observing a few basic practices:

1) Always, always solid axles. It's audacious to ask a shaft that
size to do the job if it's covered with stress-concentrating notches,
but gutting it out so there's less than 1.5mm of uninterrupted wall
thickness between thread valleys and the center bore is just
inadvisable. Solid axles aren't a cure-all, but they are much
better.

2) The biggest, stiffest axle spacers I can get, with the largest
locknut face possible. All steel, if you please. A steel spacer with
a nice heavy cross-section will resist flexing and squishing and allow
the nutted axle to accept loads the way it was intended to-- as a
tensioned fastener-- rather than a beam. A big flat locknut face
mated up to the dropout surface will better resist axle gimbaling
under load. Flanged "whizlock" type axle nuts used as locknuts can
stiffen things up quite a bit, and often provide a better-than-stock
dropout interface. I sometimes machine my own 3/8"-24, 3/8"-26, and
M10x1.0 nuts and/or spacers to do the job better than common hardware
allows.

3) Absolutely no more overhang than necessary to fit the desired
freewheel. I get very finicky about this, both to mitigate axle
breakage problems and to minimize wheel dish. I use only enough
spacing so that the chain doesn't make contact with the frame when on
the small sprocket, and no more than that.

4) Good quality hardened axles. If stock axles are cheese, I use
something that isn't. Several times, I've cut down an automotive leaf
spring center bolt (in convenient 3/8"-24 threading) to yield a
hardened, graded axle at an appealing price. Such an axle won't
accept Nuovo Thingo cones and locknuts, of course-- but it's just the
ticket for adapting a 3/8" BMX hub to multi-speed spacing.

Using these principles, I've been able to get good reliability and
longevity from even seven-speed drum-braked rear hubs, which have more
overhang than I'd prefer on _both_ sides.

Chalo

Chalo Colina wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
The axles I
broke were 120mm locknut/locknut dimesion (which is, what, 132mm overall
length?). Campagnolo. 2 of them during the days I raced. I also broke a 126
further down the road. Not mountain bikes. Road bikes. Must have been caused
by a pretty crappy out-of-alignment Cinelli that I used (which I made sure
the dropouts were perfectly aligned, because that was one of the theories
back in the day for why axles broke).

I've been able to make 3/8" and 10mm threaded axles work for myself by
observing a few basic practices:

1) Always, always solid axles. It's audacious to ask a shaft that
size to do the job if it's covered with stress-concentrating notches,
but gutting it out so there's less than 1.5mm of uninterrupted wall
thickness between thread valleys and the center bore is just
inadvisable. Solid axles aren't a cure-all, but they are much
better.

So freewheels are only better if one forgoes the quick-release?

[...]
4) Good quality hardened axles. If stock axles are cheese, I use
something that isn't. Several times, I've cut down an automotive leaf
spring center bolt (in convenient 3/8"-24 threading) to yield a
hardened, graded axle at an appealing price. Such an axle won't
accept Nuovo Thingo cones and locknuts, of course-- but it's just the
ticket for adapting a 3/8" BMX hub to multi-speed spacing.

Hardly practical for the non-machinist.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman wrote:

Chalo Colina wrote:

1) Always, always solid axles. It's audacious to ask a shaft that
size to do the job if it's covered with stress-concentrating notches,
but gutting it out so there's less than 1.5mm of uninterrupted wall
thickness between thread valleys and the center bore is just
inadvisable. Solid axles aren't a cure-all, but they are much
better.

So freewheels are only better if one forgoes the quick-release?

No, cassette hubs are also better with solid axles.

4) Good quality hardened axles. If stock axles are cheese, I use
something that isn't. Several times, I've cut down an automotive leaf
spring center bolt (in convenient 3/8"-24 threading) to yield a
hardened, graded axle at an appealing price. Such an axle won't
accept Nuovo Thingo cones and locknuts, of course-- but it's just the
ticket for adapting a 3/8" BMX hub to multi-speed spacing.

Hardly practical for the non-machinist.

Does using a hacksaw and swapping an axle qualify one as a machinist?
I'm only talking about cutting the threaded part off a long bolt. You
don't have to make the other parts; 3/8"-24 is one of the most common
axle thread pitches.

Chalo


Chalo

| I've been able to make 3/8" and 10mm threaded axles work for myself by
| observing a few basic practices: ....

One thing left out is the importance of the dropouts being very sturdy. A
thin stamped steel dropout allows a lot more axle flex than something
beefier.

Which makes me wonder about Bill Bushnell's recumbent. What's going on that
causes it to break cassette hub axles? I see him once in a while on
organized rides; I'll have to take a closer look and see what's going on. I
can't imagine a quality recumbent not having very solid dropouts (or dropout
equivalents).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Chalo" wrote in message
...
| Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
|
| The axles I
| broke were 120mm locknut/locknut dimesion (which is, what, 132mm overall
| length?). Campagnolo. 2 of them during the days I raced. I also broke a
126
| further down the road. Not mountain bikes. Road bikes. Must have been
caused
| by a pretty crappy out-of-alignment Cinelli that I used (which I made
sure
| the dropouts were perfectly aligned, because that was one of the
theories
| back in the day for why axles broke).
|
| I've been able to make 3/8" and 10mm threaded axles work for myself by
| observing a few basic practices:
|
| 1) Always, always solid axles. It's audacious to ask a shaft that
| size to do the job if it's covered with stress-concentrating notches,
| but gutting it out so there's less than 1.5mm of uninterrupted wall
| thickness between thread valleys and the center bore is just
| inadvisable. Solid axles aren't a cure-all, but they are much
| better.
|
| 2) The biggest, stiffest axle spacers I can get, with the largest
| locknut face possible. All steel, if you please. A steel spacer with
| a nice heavy cross-section will resist flexing and squishing and allow
| the nutted axle to accept loads the way it was intended to-- as a
| tensioned fastener-- rather than a beam. A big flat locknut face
| mated up to the dropout surface will better resist axle gimbaling
| under load. Flanged "whizlock" type axle nuts used as locknuts can
| stiffen things up quite a bit, and often provide a better-than-stock
| dropout interface. I sometimes machine my own 3/8"-24, 3/8"-26, and
| M10x1.0 nuts and/or spacers to do the job better than common hardware
| allows.
|
| 3) Absolutely no more overhang than necessary to fit the desired
| freewheel. I get very finicky about this, both to mitigate axle
| breakage problems and to minimize wheel dish. I use only enough
| spacing so that the chain doesn't make contact with the frame when on
| the small sprocket, and no more than that.
|
| 4) Good quality hardened axles. If stock axles are cheese, I use
| something that isn't. Several times, I've cut down an automotive leaf
| spring center bolt (in convenient 3/8"-24 threading) to yield a
| hardened, graded axle at an appealing price. Such an axle won't
| accept Nuovo Thingo cones and locknuts, of course-- but it's just the
| ticket for adapting a 3/8" BMX hub to multi-speed spacing.
|
| Using these principles, I've been able to get good reliability and
| longevity from even seven-speed drum-braked rear hubs, which have more
| overhang than I'd prefer on _both_ sides.
|
| Chalo

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
| I've been able to make 3/8" and 10mm threaded axles work for myself by
| observing a few basic practices: ....

One thing left out is the importance of the dropouts being very sturdy. A
thin stamped steel dropout allows a lot more axle flex than something
beefier.

Which makes me wonder about Bill Bushnell's recumbent. What's going on that
causes it to break cassette hub axles? I see him once in a while on
organized rides; I'll have to take a closer look and see what's going on. I
can't imagine a quality recumbent not having very solid dropouts (or dropout
equivalents).

The dropouts on the 6061 aluminium alloy frame Easy Racers Gold Rush
Replica (GRR) [1] are rather massive, and the back of the frame is
triangulated and relatively rigid.

I have known several large GRR and Tour Easy (TE) [2] riders, and none
of them have had a problem with breaking rear axles. A couple of
specialist recumbent dealers direct their heaviest customers towards the
Easy Racers bikes, as they are one of the most suitable long-wheel base
designs for these riders.

{1} http://www.easyracers.com/gold_rush.htm.
[2] http://www.easyracers.com/tour_easy.htm.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
[...]
I have known several large GRR and Tour Easy (TE) [2] riders, and none of
them have had a problem with breaking rear axles. A couple of specialist
recumbent dealers direct their heaviest customers towards the Easy Racers
bikes, as they are one of the most suitable long-wheel base designs for
these riders.

Large riders only look right on long wheelbase recumbents. They look like
clowns on short wheelbase recumbents. Mr. Sherman needs to post a picture of
himself on some website (like the fabled Harry Brogan of ARBR) and then I
will advise him what kind of recumbent he should be on. I won't even charge
him anything for my counsel - just part of My Saintliness!
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota