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  #11  
Old February 4th 04, 10:33 PM
Tom Kunich
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Default Helmet ******s

Only a few guys in the world of Usenet could state the case against helmets
with such clarity. And since I know you ain't me (And since I also don't
believe that I could state the case so eloquently even then) I can guess who
you am.

Tom

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
"Fred Nieman" wrote in message
...

Remember, there were once people (backed up, no doubt, by the results
described in peer reviewed scholarly journals) who claimed it was safer
to be thrown clear of a car in a smash than be strapped in by
seatbelts.


Remember there were once people who compared the fatality rates in

countries
with and without sealt belt laws and found them to be the same. Obviously
that couldn't be right, so that data was buried. Amazingly, when the UK
introduced sealt belt legislation - driver fatalities stayed the same!

But
there was a substantial rise in pedestrian, cyclist and rear-seat

passenger
fatalities.

If you ride a bicycle for long enough, well, statistically, you're going
to take falls, and take a bad fall sometime or other. If you don't
think so, you are either or both of a) lucky b) a fool.


There is no inevitability about it.

Collar-bones heal. Scafoids (most times) heal. Broken arms, dislocated
shoulders, skin over ankles, knees, hips, back, arms and hands all
heal. Acquired brain injuries don't heal.


And acquired brain injuries - amazingly - are mostly caused by crashes

well
outside the design envelope of hlemets, and by mechanisms which helmets do
nothing to mitigate.

A bicycle helmet (probably) didn't save my life, nor did it stop me from
getting smashed and ripped up really badly, which generally happens when
you hit the asphalt at 60 kph. But it did mean I can still walk, talk,
ride a bicycle.


Or not. Maybe it was your Mk. 1 Skull which did the job. That would be a
reasonable assumption, given that people not wearing helmets also often
survive without significant injury. That's the problem with
helmet-saved-my-life anecdotes, they always attribute the outcome solely

to
helmets. Why? Lids are designed for straight impacts at speeds up to

about
12mph. Why should we assume that they work in glancing or rotational
impacts at higher speeds? And what about the people who die when wearing
helmets? And the people who don't die when not wearing helmets?

At the population level it's not possible to proive that helmets have any
effect on brain injury. And even then, most cyclists who die of head

injury
turn out to have other mortal injuries as well.

The case for helmets really is not half as cut-and-dried as the Liddites
would like us to believe.

The only absolutely repeatable effect of helmet legislation is a

substantial
drop in cycling. And the major determinant of risk for cyclists appears

to
be the number of cyclists - the more people cycle, the safer it gets.

And same goes for all the many less major falls before and after - any a
hit to my bare head, on pavement, car, trail or whatever, might have
meant a concussion, a subdural haemorrhage, or worse. I haven't had to
find this out, though. Because... well, you know why.



Why? I have had several crashes with and without helmets and there was no
noticeable difference in outcomes. The most serious head injury I ever

had
was going through a low doorway. Should we have compulsory helmets in old
buildings? Or only for tall people?

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk




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  #12  
Old February 4th 04, 10:43 PM
Tom Kunich
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Default Helmet ******s

"S. Anderson" wrote in message
.. .
It wasn't until the wee Scot, Jackie
Stewart, came along tht driver safety became a priority. After his

somewhat
brief and highly successful career, driver fatality rates came down pretty
quickly, thanks to technology as well no doubt. He campaigned hard for
safety improvements. Today, I'm sure no driver would think of racing
without a full 5-point harness and helmet and fire suit, but there was a
time when they raced at 180mph in an open-cockpit with a polo shirt and
khakis on. Doesn't make it right, but it was the common logic of the

day..

Let's be sure to note that I for one have been at the scene of several of
what looked to be rather minor car racing accidents in which the
occupant/driver died despite seat belts, helmets and whatever else.


  #13  
Old February 4th 04, 11:26 PM
John Doe
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Default Helmet ******s


"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
"John Doe" wrote in message
...

as it happens a young cattle drover was recently killed by a fall. It

is
a
tradition for these guys to wear Akubra hats while on a muster. Not

anymore
say WorkCover (Govt Dept). The station owner was negligent for not

making
these guys wear helmets.


So that makes the fatality rate - what? one per century?

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk



If that one life could have been saved by a helmet then it is worth it.
What value are you placing on looking cool?

In this country it is also law to wear hard hats in mining operations and in
any industrial areas. Not to mention steel capped boots and the like. I
have to wear these things in sometimes what most would think was a
rediculous place but I dont mind because it saves lives and I work a lot in
industrial areas. Workers who have long hair are required to wear nets when
using lathes or other machinery where it could get caught.

Recently a young apprentice (on his first day) was killed falling off the
roof of a small building (only from 1st floor) and was killed. The employer
was charged because the worker was not tied to the roof. That is also law.

It is compulsory in this country for employers to look after their workers.
That is a fact and that is what I was saying. It is a work situation.
Nothing to do with what you do on the weekend.

BTW not wearing a bicycle helmet is an offence work or not. The fine is
measly and not really policed. (Well obvious in my city anyway).


  #14  
Old February 4th 04, 11:28 PM
Just zis Guy, you know?
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:33:56 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
wrote:

I can guess who you am.


Heh! I can do better than that - I *know* who I am :-)

To be fair, I've been practicing - some twonk wants to make it a
criminal offence to allow a child to ride a tricycle in a public park
without a polystyrene foam deflector beanie; some of us are Less Than
Enthused by the prospect.

url:http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/Web/public.nsf/Documents/Martlew_Bill

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
  #15  
Old February 4th 04, 11:37 PM
John Doe
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Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:
| "John Doe" wrote in message
| ...
|
| as it happens a young cattle drover was recently killed by a fall.

It is
| a
| tradition for these guys to wear Akubra hats while on a muster. Not
| anymore
| say WorkCover (Govt Dept). The station owner was negligent for not

making
| these guys wear helmets.
|
| So that makes the fatality rate - what? one per century?

Several a year, I would expect. He would have been on either a
horse or a motorbike.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


True, Motorbikes are common for mustering.


  #16  
Old February 4th 04, 11:47 PM
Nick Maclaren
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Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

In article ,
John Doe wrote:

If that one life could have been saved by a helmet then it is worth it.
What value are you placing on looking cool?


And if the cost of saving that one life is two people who died because
they were wearing helmets (and wouldn't have done if they weren't),
then is it still a good idea to make them mandatory?

The point is that we really don't know whether they increase or reduce
injury, and the evidence points in both directions. Why do you claim
Divine Enlightenment to know what the truth is?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #17  
Old February 4th 04, 11:54 PM
Just zis Guy, you know?
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:26:00 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

If that one life could have been saved by a helmet then it is worth it.
What value are you placing on looking cool?


Stop driving NOW! Car drivers kill tens of thousands every year in
the US ALONE! If even one life can be saved (and actually it'll bve
tens of thousands) surely it's worth it.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
  #18  
Old February 5th 04, 01:51 AM
M. Atta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

if david hooks was wearing a helmet he would be alive today
hehehehe
as Vogels jun is


"John Doe" wrote in message
...

"CSB" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 01:45:04 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
wrote:

snip

You can take the cowboy out of the country but you can't take the hat

off
of
the cowboy.


as it happens a young cattle drover was recently killed by a fall. It is

a
tradition for these guys to wear Akubra hats while on a muster. Not

anymore
say WorkCover (Govt Dept). The station owner was negligent for not making
these guys wear helmets.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...570335910.html








  #19  
Old February 5th 04, 01:52 AM
Dave Kahn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:54:18 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:26:00 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

If that one life could have been saved by a helmet then it is worth it.
What value are you placing on looking cool?


Stop driving NOW! Car drivers kill tens of thousands every year in
the US ALONE! If even one life can be saved (and actually it'll bve
tens of thousands) surely it's worth it.


Similarly people sometimes drown when they go swimming - even good
experienced swimmers. Those lives could be saved if every swimmer wore
water wings. Inconvenient? Yes. But surely worth it if just one life
is saved.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live.
Mark Twain
  #20  
Old February 5th 04, 02:06 AM
S. Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
Amazingly, when the UK
introduced sealt belt legislation - driver fatalities stayed the same!

But
there was a substantial rise in pedestrian, cyclist and rear-seat

passenger
fatalities.


Can you cite the data for this declaration? I'd be interested to see this.

Cheers,

Scott..


 




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