Yet another cyclist killed. pH (Several, actually)

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 9:12:43 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2019 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I get close passes all the time, and again, a mirror would do nothing. I get close passes while riding lane center. Cars just do stupid things whether you're looking at them through a mirror or not.

It's interesting to me that you get close passes all the time. I don't.
For me, they are _very_ rare.

Our riding environments differ, of course. But yours is supposed to be
bicycling paradise. Mine is supposed to be nothing special.

Maybe a few times per year, someone will pass close even when I'm at
lane center. In that case, the benefit of being at lane center is: I can
move right if necessary. IME, riding at the edge generates more close
passes, and there's nowhere to go to escape them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Well, I ride 6-7 days a week in a metropolitan area of about 2.5 million people on bad infrastructure with hills. Typical close pass is riding lane center, fast, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNonAs33rQ0 Real popular on Skyline, although this video is the suicidal pass versus the close pass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_jj9Ok7_Mk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENVpi3G0KhM Because of traffic congestion on HWY 26 and the usual arterials (Burnside), you end up with a lot of people speeding around on the roads through the hills. You'll like this one. He's kind of whiner, but when you're lane center going the speed limit and people are still squeezing by, it does get annoying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9_juBzWn3A

Other close passes are in bike facilities following winding roads when cars wander over. Buses wander into the bike lane on SW Barbur a lot, sometimes when you're next to them. And then they pull over.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/9/2019 2:30 AM, Chalo wrote:
John B. wrote:

"California Highway Patrol data from 2012 show there were 5,090
collisions
in LA County that year involving bikes and cars. In 2,759
of those cases, the CHP determined the cyclist was at fault and in
1,878 cases, they determined the car driver was to blame.".

That's perverse reasoning. The one who unilaterally brings on a mortal hazard is primarily to blame when something goes wrong. If some nutjob is shooting a firearm down a residential street for reasons known only to himself, and a child running around as unpredictably and harmlessly as a child gets shot, is it the child's fault? And is it really an accident?

Drivers should be assessed as the moral transgressors that they are.

I'd like to see the laws assume that a motorist is legally at fault.
Motorists could hire a lawyer to present evidence proving they were not,
but absent such proof, the assumption should be they were at fault.

Having said that, there's only a snowball's chance this would happen in
America - or even in just one American state. (Each state has its own
traffic laws.)

Perhaps the way to move in that direction would be to first lobby for
such a law in designated residential areas. Couple it with traffic
calming measures that would keep MV speeds down to 20 mph.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/8/2019 11:19 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:24:48 +1000, James
wrote:

On 9/9/19 9:03 am, John B. wrote:

And a number of studies have shown that as many as half, or more, of
bicycle auto collisions are the fault of the cyclist... but I don't
suppose that the League highlighted that :-)

"California Highway Patrol data from 2012 show there were 5,090
collisions in LA County that year involving bikes and cars. In 2,759
of those cases, the CHP determined the cyclist was at fault and in
1,878 cases, they determined the car driver was to blame."


Perhaps there is a cultural difference at work to explain the difference
in Australia, where a number of studies have concluded that the drivers
are at fault in something like 4 out of 5 cases.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed...s-report-finds

It seems to depend largely on who is writing the reports. The CHP
report I mentioned was written by them for (I imagine) their
headquarters. I've also read a report from a couple of sites about
coroner's reports showing a rather large percent of dead cyclists that
"had drink taken"

But when you turn to the Bicycle page it immediately becomes "t'wasn't
us, it was some other guy done it", which, I guess, makes sense :-)

News reports about bicycles are nearly all dependent on somebody else,
if for no other reason than the usual news writer knows nothing about
bicycles.

As an aside, it used to be that a news writer had to apply the 5 W's -
Who, What, When, Where, Why - was the rule. Now if one can get a
little blood in the first paragraph that is all you need.

I would say, though, that I've been riding a bike for, probably, 30
years or so and I never seen a bike crash. Truck crash, airplane
crash, car crash, motorcycle crash, but never a bicycle crash.

Here in Thailand the official number of motorcycle crashes are about
5,500 motorcycle crashes annually. I asked my neighbor who is a Police
Senior Sergeant with 20-odd years service about bicycle crashes and he
said something along the lines that ,"I think I remember we had one,
one time".

In my own mind, I do not believe that riding a bicycle is a
particularly dangerous pastime.
(with or without helmet :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


I don't know.

Perusing the news every morning I assume that reports are
completely opaque because neither the police agency nor the
reporters give a crap about bicyclists one way or the other,

Typical example:
https://ktla.com/2019/09/07/82-year-...in-long-beach/

What exactly happened? No idea whatsoever. Official
statistics may well classify this as an anomaly or
UFO-related event or what have you.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/9/2019 12:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 9:12:43 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It's interesting to me that you get close passes all the time. I don't.
For me, they are _very_ rare.

Our riding environments differ, of course. But yours is supposed to be
bicycling paradise. Mine is supposed to be nothing special.

Maybe a few times per year, someone will pass close even when I'm at
lane center. In that case, the benefit of being at lane center is: I can
move right if necessary. IME, riding at the edge generates more close
passes, and there's nowhere to go to escape them.

Lots to talk about below. In general, I tell people the bicyclist gets
to make the choice about lane position, so I'm not going to say anyone
was wrong. But there are times I would do it differently - either
further left or further right.

Typical close pass is riding lane center, fast, e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNonAs33rQ0

At 0:10 on that bridge, I think I'd have been further right! It looks
like there's enough room to easily share the lane. I see the marker
cones ahead, though, and maybe he was afraid he'd run into them?

Real popular on Skyline, although this video is the suicidal pass versus the close pass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_jj9Ok7_Mk

At about 0:50, where the cyclists can see around the bend but the
motorist probably cannot, I'd definitely be in the LEFT tire track, and
waving for the motorists to stay back. Especially the second motorist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENVpi3G0KhM

That guy's almost on top of the white edge line a lot of the time. Nope,
I'm not going to do that.

Because of traffic congestion on HWY 26 and the usual arterials (Burnside), you end up with a lot of people speeding around on the roads through the hills. You'll like this one. He's kind of whiner, but when you're lane center going the speed limit and people are still squeezing by, it does get annoying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9_juBzWn3A

The video guy is a wannabee cop - and he'd make a bad cop.

Yes, it may be technically illegal to use part of the center turn lane
when passing a cyclist (actually, Ohio law seems unclear; it's
specifically legal to cross a yellow to pass a bike or other vehicle
going less than half the speed limit) but I normally have no objections
to it. I find those three lane roads pretty pleasant for riding,
precisely because almost all motorists pass that way, giving me plenty
of clearance.

There are places in that video where I'd probably share the lane by
moving right.

About speeding drivers who are otherwise behaving: Sometimes I may shake
my head, but there's no way I get as worked up as the video guy. Geez,
he's setting himself up for a coronary event!

Other close passes are in bike facilities following winding roads when cars wander over. Buses wander into the bike lane on SW Barbur a lot, sometimes when you're next to them. And then they pull over.

I know an avid utility cyclist and cycling advocate who had that happen
to her. She got the bus number and called the transit agency. They
didn't actually apologize, but I bet the bus driver heard about it later.

I'd suspect a letter from a lawyer would raise even more ruckus in the
transit agency.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/9/2019 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 01:07:20 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. fails to understand ethics.

Ah yes, the ultimate response.

But I always thought that telling lies, trying to rape women and
bribing people was the American Way. After all you elected a guy that
does that to be your leader.

Ohferchrissake.
He's been out of office since 21 January 2001.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/8/2019 6:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I don't use a mirror, but my head does turn, and I can see a car or truck approaching from behind, and I continue to do what I'm doing. A mirror might be helpful when I'm passing cyclists and have to drop into traffic while watching the cyclist ahead, but it may also be a distraction. I don't know. I used mirror for two days forty years ago and hated it. I was hit from the rear by a bus, and a mirror would have done nothing to avoid that. I get close passes all the time, and again, a mirror would do nothing. I get close passes while riding lane center. Cars just do stupid things whether you're looking at them through a mirror or not.

There is a learning curve here, and I think most of it is at the
subconscious level.

My first use was pretty much 40 years ago also, and also after a few
days I gave up - for a bit. Tried again shortly afterward and have been
happily "mirrored" ever since. It's so much nicer to see what's going
on back there.

Mark J.

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 10:29:48 -0700,
Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2019 6:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I don't use a mirror, but my head does turn, and I can see a
car or truck approaching from behind, and I continue to do
what I'm doing. A mirror might be helpful when I'm passing
cyclists and have to drop into traffic while watching the
cyclist ahead, but it may also be a distraction. I don't
know. I used mirror for two days forty years ago and hated
it. I was hit from the rear by a bus, and a mirror would have
done nothing to avoid that. I get close passes all the time,
and again, a mirror would do nothing. I get close passes
while riding lane center. Cars just do stupid things whether
you're looking at them through a mirror or not.

There is a learning curve here, and I think most of it is at
the subconscious level.

My first use was pretty much 40 years ago also, and also after
a few days I gave up - for a bit. Tried again shortly
afterward and have been happily "mirrored" ever since. It's so
much nicer to see what's going on back there.

I use a mirror too, but I find turning my head to look back at
overtaking cars often has its own effect. The driver tends to
give me more space, or even wait a bit. My theory is that seeing
a face humanizes the rider in the driver's mind.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 9:50:34 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/9/2019 12:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 9:12:43 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It's interesting to me that you get close passes all the time. I don't..
For me, they are _very_ rare.

Our riding environments differ, of course. But yours is supposed to be
bicycling paradise. Mine is supposed to be nothing special.

Maybe a few times per year, someone will pass close even when I'm at
lane center. In that case, the benefit of being at lane center is: I can
move right if necessary. IME, riding at the edge generates more close
passes, and there's nowhere to go to escape them.

Lots to talk about below. In general, I tell people the bicyclist gets
to make the choice about lane position, so I'm not going to say anyone
was wrong. But there are times I would do it differently - either
further left or further right.

Typical close pass is riding lane center, fast, e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNonAs33rQ0

At 0:10 on that bridge, I think I'd have been further right! It looks
like there's enough room to easily share the lane. I see the marker
cones ahead, though, and maybe he was afraid he'd run into them?

No, you don't want to oscillate in and out of traffic going the speed of traffic or above. This is the set-up for the bridge -- a 10-12% narrow downhill. https://tinyurl.com/y2oasonm For fun climbing, spin around and go back up. Anyway, they're narrow lanes onto and off of the bridge. You're setting yourself up for a conflict if you give up the lane on the bridge.


Real popular on Skyline, although this video is the suicidal pass versus the close pass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_jj9Ok7_Mk

At about 0:50, where the cyclists can see around the bend but the
motorist probably cannot, I'd definitely be in the LEFT tire track, and
waving for the motorists to stay back. Especially the second motorist.

You could do that, but you would certainly end up with a sore arm from waiving at traffic. The video is basically shot he https://tinyurl.com/y3uzyfnb Scroll forward and begin flagging operations.

If you ride a consistent line to the right, the compliant drivers wait and can pass safely. Taking the left track for a short period is a fine thing, although it carries its own risks -- like downhill traffic crossing the center line, but more often just dopes who will pass you anyway with even less clearance. But yes, sometimes herding is in order, but there is no hard and fast rule.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENVpi3G0KhM

That guy's almost on top of the white edge line a lot of the time. Nope,
I'm not going to do that.

Go to :12 and look at his shadow. I also suspect he hears the SUV because he moves left. The passing SUV is fully in the other lane. He's a whiner, but it annoying to get squeezed by dopes in SUVs -- particularly since they're going to sit at some stoplight.

Because of traffic congestion on HWY 26 and the usual arterials (Burnside), you end up with a lot of people speeding around on the roads through the hills. You'll like this one. He's kind of whiner, but when you're lane center going the speed limit and people are still squeezing by, it does get annoying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9_juBzWn3A

The video guy is a wannabee cop - and he'd make a bad cop.

Yes, it may be technically illegal to use part of the center turn lane
when passing a cyclist (actually, Ohio law seems unclear; it's
specifically legal to cross a yellow to pass a bike or other vehicle
going less than half the speed limit) but I normally have no objections
to it. I find those three lane roads pretty pleasant for riding,
precisely because almost all motorists pass that way, giving me plenty
of clearance.

There are places in that video where I'd probably share the lane by
moving right.

Probably, and I wouldn't be a whiner about being passed there if given sufficient room. I'd also be going faster. The point, though, is that he is riding lawfully, going the speed limit, taking the lane and getting close passes. He could reasonably make the choice not to ride further right so he is seen by all the entering traffic on SW Scholls Ferry, which is a traffic nightmare. Actually, my major fear of that road is getting smacked by entering traffic, but its not much of a fear because I don't ride down that much. I descend out of the West Hills on more peaceful routes.

About speeding drivers who are otherwise behaving: Sometimes I may shake
my head, but there's no way I get as worked up as the video guy. Geez,
he's setting himself up for a coronary event!

Other close passes are in bike facilities following winding roads when cars wander over. Buses wander into the bike lane on SW Barbur a lot, sometimes when you're next to them. And then they pull over.

I know an avid utility cyclist and cycling advocate who had that happen
to her. She got the bus number and called the transit agency. They
didn't actually apologize, but I bet the bus driver heard about it later.

I'd suspect a letter from a lawyer would raise even more ruckus in the
transit agency.

I'd be spending a lot of time on the phone. I think some of these guys just have trouble coloring in the lines with those giant buses on our narrow lanes. The equipment should be sized differently.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 8:16:13 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
....I was hit from the rear by a bus, and a mirror would have done nothing to avoid that. I get close passes all the time, and again, a mirror would do nothing.

What the mirror does is give you the opportunity to see the object approaching from behind and make a judgement as to its threat level. Also, it allows you to do this frequently (especially when you hear a vehicle approaching from behind) without much more than a flick of an eyeball.
Even those riders with acute hearing would be unlikely to distinguish between a bus and a bus with an extended side-view mirror; the mirror-equipped rider would have a better chance to take evasive action.

On 9/9/2019 1:54 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 10:29:48 -0700,
Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2019 6:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I don't use a mirror, but my head does turn, and I can see a
car or truck approaching from behind, and I continue to do
what I'm doing. A mirror might be helpful when I'm passing
cyclists and have to drop into traffic while watching the
cyclist ahead, but it may also be a distraction. I don't
know. I used mirror for two days forty years ago and hated
it. I was hit from the rear by a bus, and a mirror would have
done nothing to avoid that. I get close passes all the time,
and again, a mirror would do nothing. I get close passes
while riding lane center. Cars just do stupid things whether
you're looking at them through a mirror or not.

There is a learning curve here, and I think most of it is at
the subconscious level.

My first use was pretty much 40 years ago also, and also after
a few days I gave up - for a bit. Tried again shortly
afterward and have been happily "mirrored" ever since. It's so
much nicer to see what's going on back there.

I use a mirror too, but I find turning my head to look back at
overtaking cars often has its own effect. The driver tends to
give me more space, or even wait a bit. My theory is that seeing
a face humanizes the rider in the driver's mind.

I agree. Of course, using a mirror doesn't preclude turning one's head
to look behind.

One of the trickier traffic riding moves is to negotiate with following
drivers when I have to merge leftward - say, to make my way over to a
center left turn lane.

The mirror helps the process by letting me spot gaps in traffic. When I
choose a potential gap, I'll signal and look back at the next driver. In
almost all cases, they'll cooperate and let me move left. I repeat as
needed if another lane change is necessary, as on a four lane highway.

I think the turning and looking does make it more a person-to-person thing.

--
- Frank Krygowski