Bicycling is not Dangerous

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:00:20 -0800, Jay Beattie wrote:



On Nov 17, 10:10*am, davethedave wrote:

Snipped


Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.

Snipped

davethedave

Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Cheers

On 18/11/12 11:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.


Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships
used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to
disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Most boats with a tiller steer by pushing the tiller away from the
direction of turn.

But returning to bicycles, the push left to turn right is only a
momentary thing. Once the CG is moving right, you have to steer right
or fall off, that is unless you're counter steering and have the back
end way out, Dan O style ;-)

--
JS

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:00:20 -0800, Jay Beattie wrote:



On Nov 17, 10:10*am, davethedave wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:15:44 -0800, frkrygow wrote:



snip



Amazingly, they have an excellent safety record, compared to solo



motorcycles.



I've heard and read that sidecar rigs are very tricky to handle.

*I've never tried one, though.



The main problem is that people coming from a motorcycles are used to

counter-steering (often unknowingly) to produce an angle of lean on the

bike.



To turn right you would turn the bars left to lean the bike and to turn

left you move the bars right.



When you add a third wheel the counter steering does not function to

lean the bike into the corner but steers the sidecar outfit into the

landscape. Resulting in much hilarity and plucking of tree bits from

clothing.



The subject of the original post is actually a motorcycle racer and

part-time professional instructor (among other things -- lot's of spare

time when you don't have kids). We chat a lot about high-powered

motorcycling while riding our low-powered bicycles. Anyway, it sounds

more like mountain biking where drifting and zero traction don't spell

disaster, and you can apply power to steer -- it would take me a while

to get used to this alternate universe.



Application of power or engine braking to steer a vehicle is not an

unheard of nor complex thing. Not enough power gives you understeer. Too

much power, oversteer. It's not, frankly, rocket science.



The problem with the switch from motorcycles to sidecars is not drifting

or zero traction it's the change in physics involved in the steering of

two vehicles which have exactly the same controls but a completely

different response to user input.



Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.



This is like a cycle steering system, whether you like it or not. Whether

you understand it or not. I will guarantee that you turn the bars left to

go right, whether you notice or not. On a bicycle the input is very

small. On a motorcycle at speed it often needs to be a much more positive

effort to lean the bike.



A boffin explains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU



This is all great and good for a bike. However once you have deeply

ingrained the turn left to go right behaviour into the muscle memory.

When you then get on a sidecar equipped bike it all gets a bit "Eeeek!

trees." because you don't want to induce lean to get round he corner. You

just want to point it in the direction you want to go in. A sidecar

equipped motorcycle just goes where the bars are pointed in a very un-

bike like manner often catching people out.

That sounds like a very good explanation of what I was experiencing on that guy's racing upright trike. I didn't ride it long enough to analyze it; I just remembering thinking "This thing doesn't handle right, it seems very twitchy, almost unstable!"

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 7:39:17 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 18/11/12 11:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:

Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.





Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships

used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to

disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.



Most boats with a tiller steer by pushing the tiller away from the

direction of turn.



But returning to bicycles, the push left to turn right is only a

momentary thing. Once the CG is moving right, you have to steer right

or fall off, that is unless you're counter steering and have the back

end way out, Dan O style ;-)

There's always this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxd7HXrEsKc
Apparently, it's really difficult until you get the hang of it!

- Frank Krygowski

On Nov 17, 6:05*pm, wrote:
On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:00:20 -0800, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Nov 17, 10:10*am, davethedave wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:15:44 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

snip

Amazingly, they have an excellent safety record, compared to solo

motorcycles.

I've heard and read that sidecar rigs are very tricky to handle.

*I've never tried one, though.

The main problem is that people coming from a motorcycles are used to

counter-steering (often unknowingly) to produce an angle of lean on the

bike.

To turn right you would turn the bars left to lean the bike and to turn

left you move the bars right.

When you add a third wheel the counter steering does not function to

lean the bike into the corner but steers the sidecar outfit into the

landscape. Resulting in much hilarity and plucking of tree bits from

clothing.

The subject of the original post is actually a motorcycle racer and

part-time professional instructor (among other things -- lot's of spare

time when you don't have kids). We chat a lot about high-powered

motorcycling while riding our low-powered bicycles. Anyway, it sounds

more like mountain biking where drifting and zero traction don't spell

disaster, and you can apply power to steer -- it would take me a while

to get used to this alternate universe.

Application of power or engine braking to steer a vehicle is not an

unheard of nor complex thing. Not enough power gives you understeer. Too

much power, oversteer. It's not, frankly, rocket science.

The problem with the switch from motorcycles to sidecars is not drifting

or zero traction it's the change in physics involved in the steering of

two vehicles which have exactly the same controls but a completely

different response to user input.

Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.

This is like a cycle steering system, whether you like it or not. Whether

you understand it or not. I will guarantee that you turn the bars left to

go right, whether you notice or not. On a bicycle the input is very

small. On a motorcycle at speed it often needs to be a much more positive

effort to lean the bike.

A boffin explains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU

This is all great and good for a bike. However once you have deeply

ingrained the turn left to go right behaviour into the muscle memory.

When you then get on a sidecar equipped bike it all gets a bit "Eeeek!

trees." because you don't want to induce lean to get round he corner. You

just want to point it in the direction you want to go in. A sidecar

equipped motorcycle just goes where the bars are pointed in a very un-

bike like manner often catching people out.

That sounds like a very good explanation of what I was experiencing on that guy's racing upright trike. *I didn't ride it long enough to analyze it; I just remembering thinking "This thing doesn't handle right, it seems very twitchy, almost unstable!"

- Frank Krygowski

Why the exclamation point?
But at least you are talking tech. Remember? The name of the group?
That's a refreshing change.
Why do you suspect it was unstable?
A number of years ago I had the opportunity to pilot a prototype
vehicle similar to the easily found GM "Lean Machine."
A creative developer, but a non-cyclist.
Three wheels with a two-wheeled "stable" axle, and a chassis that
tilted with the remaining wheel.
The prototype was an unpowered "downhill only" device that I took
down a two mile pitch which was only gravel back then.
That stretch is now paved and this year was used during the USA Pro
Challenge.
Anyhow, the device was quite controllable, kinda' fun. I don't believe
I had any particular criticism to convey to the developer (sadly, now
deceased).
DR

On 11-17-2012 11:33, thirty-six wrote:
On 17 Nov, 02:53, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-16-2012 14:47, wrote:

Many, most people do not know how to fall on a bicycle. There is a technique to falling and not getting too injured. As you state, keep your hands on the bars. DO NOT stick your hand out to catch yourself. Just results in a broken wrist or arm. DO NOT unclip your feet from the pedals. Sticking your foot out usually results in a broken ankle or twisted knee. I suppose there are instances where you can stick your foot out and form a tripod stance with the two wheels and slide sideways. The goal when falling is to stay as compact as possible and within the perimeter of the bike itself. Stick nothing out.

None of my crashes have broken any bones. Two of them removed a lot of
skin and one of them totaled the bicycle without injuring me.

Ever think of taking it to a professional level? Riders that bounce
are a real asset that can be banked on.

Ha! Almost seemed like a bounce that one time. I was momentarily
distracted and suddenly realized I was about to rub my right thigh on a
parked flatbed truck. Having no time to plan a response, I just
instinctively swerved.

Next thing I knew, I was on my feet somewhere else. Turned around and
saw my bike blocking traffic about twenty feet away. Ran back, grabbed
it and tried to get it out of the street. It resisted. Then I noticed
the fork was bent, one side of the axle was popped out.

Pondering the evidence afterward, I deduce that the flipping of the bike
caused me to spin in the air. I hit the pavement on the upper part of
my back, but the momentum rolled me right up onto my feet instead of
injuring my back.

None of this had to do with any skill or training, just happened to have
God, angels, and/or Newtonian mechanics helping me out.

--
Wes Groleau

“Ideas are more powerful than guns,
We would not let our enemies have guns;
why should we let them have ideas?�
— Jozef Stalin

On Nov 17, 4:39 pm, James wrote:
On 18/11/12 11:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.

Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships
used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to
disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Most boats with a tiller steer by pushing the tiller away from the
direction of turn.

But returning to bicycles, the push left to turn right is only a
momentary thing. Once the CG is moving right, you have to steer right
or fall off, that is unless you're counter steering and have the back
end way out, Dan O style ;-)


At the fair a couple of years ago these guys had an attraction called
the "Crazy Bike" (something like that) - just a BMX bike with an extra
linkage in the stem that reversed the pivoting relationship between
handlebars and front wheel (could also have included a ratio change,
but appeared to be 1:1). They were charging $5 a try to ride it a
short distance between the lines, offering a $100 prize to anyone who
could do it without dabbing a foot.

Of course the guy running the attraction could do it. Proud as I am
of my bike riding ability, I didn't fall for it (literally or
figuratively :-) because I don't like public humiliation, and it was
apparent to me that riding this thing would require practiced
suspension of the ingrained "instinct" that comprises my bike riding
skill (well remembering that other fair years ago when I had
confidently hopped on the three-wheel "ATV" and ran it right off the
end of the first turn).

On Nov 17, 5:42 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-17-2012 11:33, thirty-six wrote:

On 17 Nov, 02:53, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-16-2012 14:47, wrote:

Many, most people do not know how to fall on a bicycle. There is a technique to falling and not getting too injured. As you state, keep your hands on the bars. DO NOT stick your hand out to catch yourself. Just results in a broken wrist or arm. DO NOT unclip your feet from the pedals. Sticking your foot out usually results in a broken ankle or twisted knee. I suppose there are instances where you can stick your foot out and form a tripod stance with the two wheels and slide sideways. The goal when falling is to stay as compact as possible and within the perimeter of the bike itself. Stick nothing out.

None of my crashes have broken any bones. Two of them removed a lot of
skin and one of them totaled the bicycle without injuring me.

Ever think of taking it to a professional level? Riders that bounce
are a real asset that can be banked on.

Ha! Almost seemed like a bounce that one time. I was momentarily
distracted and suddenly realized I was about to rub my right thigh on a
parked flatbed truck. Having no time to plan a response, I just
instinctively swerved.

Next thing I knew, I was on my feet somewhere else. Turned around and
saw my bike blocking traffic about twenty feet away. Ran back, grabbed
it and tried to get it out of the street. It resisted. Then I noticed
the fork was bent, one side of the axle was popped out.

Pondering the evidence afterward, I deduce that the flipping of the bike
caused me to spin in the air. I hit the pavement on the upper part of
my back, but the momentum rolled me right up onto my feet instead of
injuring my back.

None of this had to do with any skill or training, just happened to have
God, angels, and/or Newtonian mechanics helping me out.


Except that he hath forsaken your bike, apparently.

On Nov 17, 5:14 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, November 17, 2012 7:39:17 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 18/11/12 11:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:

Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.

Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships

used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to

disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Most boats with a tiller steer by pushing the tiller away from the

direction of turn.

But returning to bicycles, the push left to turn right is only a

momentary thing. Once the CG is moving right, you have to steer right

or fall off, that is unless you're counter steering and have the back

end way out, Dan O style ;-)

There's always this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxd7HXrEsKc
Apparently, it's really difficult until you get the hang of it!


Is that the "Crazy Bike"? (No Adobe Flash Player to watch the video.)

On 18/11/12 16:41, Dan O wrote:
On Nov 17, 4:39 pm, James wrote:
On 18/11/12 11:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.

Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships
used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to
disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Most boats with a tiller steer by pushing the tiller away from the
direction of turn.

But returning to bicycles, the push left to turn right is only a
momentary thing. Once the CG is moving right, you have to steer right
or fall off, that is unless you're counter steering and have the back
end way out, Dan O style ;-)


At the fair a couple of years ago these guys had an attraction called
the "Crazy Bike" (something like that) - just a BMX bike with an extra
linkage in the stem that reversed the pivoting relationship between
handlebars and front wheel (could also have included a ratio change,
but appeared to be 1:1). They were charging $5 a try to ride it a
short distance between the lines, offering a $100 prize to anyone who
could do it without dabbing a foot.

Of course the guy running the attraction could do it. Proud as I am
of my bike riding ability, I didn't fall for it (literally or
figuratively :-) because I don't like public humiliation, and it was
apparent to me that riding this thing would require practiced
suspension of the ingrained "instinct" that comprises my bike riding
skill (well remembering that other fair years ago when I had
confidently hopped on the three-wheel "ATV" and ran it right off the
end of the first turn).


I wonder what would happen if you rode no hands. Would the bars move
the wrong direction when you lean the bike, or not?

Curious.

--
JS.