Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

Statistically they are losing the war.
, as losses to predators mount.

So, from the conservationist's standpoint there's
not a problem, right?

Well, I think we are talking apples and oranges. Losses can mount if
the predators normal food supply is eliminated, and the predator turns
to domestic animals. A conservationist is not happy when the ranchers
suffer losses. They wouldn't want the animals to be in a place where
they shouldn't be, living off of man's left-overs, living a life on
the run, not living long enough to learn/teach the skils of hunting,
etc that a mature animal can teach. We have coyotes in town here,
eating garbage, dogfood, kittens and puppies. This isn't a
conservationists goal.

I wish I could find the name of that book, I'd like to recomend it.
It was about how a guy found he could run his ranch living with
coyotes without warfare, expense, losses or damaging dangerous
poisons. He provided habitat, and they reclaimed their function as a
vital part of the local foodchain. Stable familes of healthy coyotes
roaming his land helped keep balance in the rodent population.

we were really a lot more worried about rattlesnakes.

I too have lived in rattlesnake country. I won't kill the critter if
he is where he should be, but close around a house or public
campground or something I would.

We used to have to carry the pipe, and then fiddle with it
to recouple the sections together.

Oh, yes. We watered at night a lot to get better use of the water.
And mowed and raked at night to keep more of the leaves on the
alfalfa. Sometimes I had no shoes so I hadda walk around in that
freezing wet field stepping on those sharp stubbles, hands frozen from
handling the cold pipes and water... well, sometimes it wasn't cold
of course. I stepped on a snake at night once and got bit but I think
it was a gopher snake or something. I never had a close call with
rattlesnakes in a hay field. I had close calls other places.

An odd and revealing incident occurred a number of years ago. I think
my bro and I were ground squirrel hunting (somebody has to, we have
killed off the hawks, eagles, snakes, bobcats, coyotes and mtn lions).
We were walking through a fallow field of tall brown weeds and grass,
on a cow trail. Bro was about 40' in front of me. I stopped, said,
"Snake!" so he instantly stopped and said "Where?!!!" I said, "I
don't kow, but I saw one!". We both turned around and walked back,
carefully examining the area before each step. I found a rattlesnake,
about 50' back, coiled up and cammoflauged in the brown grass.
Somehow my brain was doing some post-processing on everything I saw!
Maybe 10 seconds after I saw it, and with a steady stream of new
images to process, my brain finally hollared "Snake!"

In my un-enlightened days I have killed countless rattlesnakes and
done other irresponsible acts against nature, but I do better these
days.

(GeoB) wrote in message . com...

[...]

we were really a lot more worried about rattlesnakes.

I too have lived in rattlesnake country. I won't kill the critter if
he is where he should be, but close around a house or public
campground or something I would.

We used to have to carry the pipe, and then fiddle with it
to recouple the sections together.

Oh, yes. We watered at night a lot to get better use of the water.
And mowed and raked at night to keep more of the leaves on the
alfalfa. Sometimes I had no shoes so I hadda walk around in that
freezing wet field stepping on those sharp stubbles, hands frozen from
handling the cold pipes and water... well, sometimes it wasn't cold
of course. I stepped on a snake at night once and got bit but I think
it was a gopher snake or something. I never had a close call with
rattlesnakes in a hay field. I had close calls other places.

An odd and revealing incident occurred a number of years ago. I think
my bro and I were ground squirrel hunting (somebody has to, we have
killed off the hawks, eagles, snakes, bobcats, coyotes and mtn lions).
We were walking through a fallow field of tall brown weeds and grass,
on a cow trail. Bro was about 40' in front of me. I stopped, said,
"Snake!" so he instantly stopped and said "Where?!!!" I said, "I
don't kow, but I saw one!". We both turned around and walked back,
carefully examining the area before each step. I found a rattlesnake,
about 50' back, coiled up and cammoflauged in the brown grass.
Somehow my brain was doing some post-processing on everything I saw!
Maybe 10 seconds after I saw it, and with a steady stream of new
images to process, my brain finally hollared "Snake!"

In my un-enlightened days I have killed countless rattlesnakes and
done other irresponsible acts against nature, but I do better these
days.

I have gotten into arguments with others on the issue of what animals
mankind (and presumably all other primates) have an instinctive fear
of. Just the thought of snakes makes my skin crawl. I think it is
instinctive and that it must be due to their poisonous nature and the
fact that they are hard to see. I also fear mountain lions and bears
too, but it is not the same kind of fear. It is a more rational fear,
but my fear of snakes seems irrational. It feels instinctive. Anyone
else agree with me on this?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On 20 Jan 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Edward Dolan) wrote:

It is a more rational fear,
but my fear of snakes seems irrational. It feels instinctive. Anyone
else agree with me on this?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

There is nothing IMO like a large black spider in the middle of a
white wall. Always reminds me that some sci fi writer (Heinlein in
City and the Dogs???) said that spiders were from another planet and
completely alien. Snakes OTOH I got used to. Owned a small boa and saw
enough in Thailand.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Edward Dolan wrote:


I have gotten into arguments with others on the issue of what animals
mankind (and presumably all other primates) have an instinctive fear of.
Just the thought of snakes makes my skin crawl. I think it is instinctive
and that it must be due to their poisonous nature and the fact that they
are hard to see.

I think you may have a point there. I've only ever seen a wild snake
once. I was riding along a canal towpath (on a mountain bike, before I
got my trike) and it just wriggled across the path in front of me. My
first reaction, before the rational part of my brain kicked in was sheer
panic ("Aargh! Snake! Run away!").

Which might be more understandable if I lived in a place with lots of
poisonous serpents, but of the three kinds of snake in the UK only one
is venomous, with a bite that's apparently no worse than a bad bee-sting
to a healthy adult (I'm not volunteering to test that, mind.), so
definitely an irrational fear there.

I dimly remember reading somewhere, possibly in a book by Gerald
Durrell, that chimpanzees, even ones born in zoos, have an instinctive
fear of snakes, to the extent that they will cower away from a length
of hosepipe left in their cages, so maybe it's a hardwired primate
thing. Not that I know much about it really...

--
Carol Hague
"Neither love nor evil conquers all, but evil cheats more."
Laurell K. Hamilton, _Cerulean Sins_

"Carol Hague" skrev i en meddelelse ...
Edward Dolan wrote:


I have gotten into arguments with others on the issue of what animals
mankind (and presumably all other primates) have an instinctive fear of.
Just the thought of snakes makes my skin crawl. I think it is instinctive
and that it must be due to their poisonous nature and the fact that they
are hard to see.

I think you may have a point there. I've only ever seen a wild snake
once. I was riding along a canal towpath (on a mountain bike, before I
got my trike) and it just wriggled across the path in front of me. My
first reaction, before the rational part of my brain kicked in was sheer
panic ("Aargh! Snake! Run away!").

Well I don't get scared of snakes just because I see or think of one
and I have handled some nonpoisonous ones. They are pretty cool.
If you can't deal with that I would say you got a phobia.

However on a trip to Bornholm when I walked along a rockstrewn beach
something hissed very loudly at me. Dunno if it was a snake or what
but that was the connection my mind unconsciously made and I did
a very good impression of a human trying to levitate. Big jumps the hell away
from the sound. That was instinct kicking in.

Mikael

Just the thought of snakes makes my skin crawl.
I think it is instinctive

Snakes I like. Except the mean ones, I don't like mean anything. But
spiders.... I have the Audubon book of insects and spiders. I
*never* let my fingers go between the pages where the spider photos
are! I wage incessant war on Black Widows. I have taught my daughter
to also. In the summer we go out with arachnidicide in a spray
bottle, and a flashlight and patrol our neighborhood and kill all we
find! And before someone thinks to start on me about this being an
odd attitude in a conservation-minded person, let me remind you that
the opportunistic black widow's distribution and habitat has been
greatly enlarged by man's actions. We provide ideal habitat for these
critters. I am just trying to restore the balance. :-)

I think you may have a point there. I've only ever seen a wild snake
once.

I used to keep them as pets. I have captured rattlesnakes (western
Diamondback), California King Snake, Rubber Boa, desert Night Snake,
gopher snakes, garter snakes, desert shovel nose, various types of
hot-tempered aggressive racers (red, blue). It was great fun as a kid
to torment a racer till it was spitting angry, them run screaming as
it chased! And you DO have to run fast (for a kid). Those guys can
book, and they can give a painful bite on the legs or cheeks. Also
think a black snake and a hog-nosed snake, and I am forgetting a few I
can't quite pull up. On some of these, like a Diamondback, you better
know what you are doing before handling it. I suggest practice on a
gopher snake or Red Racer. A big thick rattlesnake twice as big
around as my arm (as a kid), are VERY strong when they try to pull
their head/neck out of your sweaty, trembling fist! DO NOT let them
throw a loop around your arm, thereby obtaining purchase for their
efforts. And don't *put* them down, if they have a loop around a body
part, unwind it first, then, holding the neck and the tail, gently
toss it a few feet from you onto something soft like pine needles or
leaves.

I was riding along a canal towpath (on a mountain bike,
before I got my trike) and it just wriggled across the
path in front of me.

What a treat to see some wild nature at first hand! In the wilderness
on horse-back once [1], a wolverine crossed right in front of me, in a
nasty thunderstorm's downpour. I believe he never saw me, and I was
close enough to count his toes. Love those types of encounters.

My first reaction, before the rational part of my brain
kicked in was sheer panic ("Aargh! Snake! Run away!").

My young Australian Shepherd who had never seen a snake previously,
went berserk trying to protect me from a savage garter snake! :-) I
too think it's instinctive.

[1] I was on the horse, not the wolverine [2]
[2] I was sitting on the horse, I was not sitting on the wolverine.

"Mikael Seierup" wrote in message ...

"Carol Hague" skrev i en meddelelse ...

Edward Dolan wrote:


I have gotten into arguments with others on the issue of what animals
mankind (and presumably all other primates) have an instinctive fear of.
Just the thought of snakes makes my skin crawl. I think it is instinctive
and that it must be due to their poisonous nature and the fact that they
are hard to see.

I think you may have a point there. I've only ever seen a wild snake
once. I was riding along a canal towpath (on a mountain bike, before I
got my trike) and it just wriggled across the path in front of me. My
first reaction, before the rational part of my brain kicked in was sheer
panic ("Aargh! Snake! Run away!").

Well I don't get scared of snakes just because I see or think of one
and I have handled some nonpoisonous ones. They are pretty cool.
If you can't deal with that I would say you got a phobia.

Carol Hague wrote:

I dimly remember reading somewhere, possibly in a book by Gerald
Durrell, that chimpanzees, even ones born in zoos, have an instinctive
fear of snakes, to the extent that they will cower away from a length
of hosepipe left in their cages, so maybe it's a hardwired primate
thing. Not that I know much about it really...

However on a trip to Bornholm when I walked along a rockstrewn beach
something hissed very loudly at me. Dunno if it was a snake or what
but that was the connection my mind unconsciously made and I did
a very good impression of a human trying to levitate. Big jumps the hell away
from the sound. That was instinct kicking in.

Mikael

What you are calling a phobia I am calling a primordial instinct that
probably evolved from primate experience with snakes, poisonous or
otherwise. The story of the chimpanzee above illustrates this and it
strikes me as being true and accurate. We humans of course with our
conscious minds can overcome just about any instinct or fear, but
those instincts are there for good and sufficient reason. Any primate
without those fears would soon be done away with and would not pass
those "fearless" genes on to any progeny. Our ears are sharply tuned
to the sound of a snake hissing. Thus spake evolution!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

The name of the book that Geo B. mentioned, is "Sandy", by Dayton
O. Hyde. He wrote several books and he may have mentioned the symbiotic
relationship he had with Coyotes on his ranch in some of the others. He
lived on a ranch in the Sycan Marsh, a part of the Klamath drainage in
Oregon. The reference to the value of having mature, established
predators, that responsibly managed their affairs, is only brief in this
book, but it starts you thinking about many aspects of the concept. An
Internet Search on Hyde's name will connect you to many other
wildlife-oriented projects on which he has worked. I've been involved
with wildlife studies all my life and I can verify the accuracy of the
things he has written.

Steve McDonald

Mikael Seierup wrote:

"Carol Hague" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Edward wrote:
human fear of snakes being instinctive

I think you may have a point there. I've only ever seen a wild snake
once. I was riding along a canal towpath (on a mountain bike, before I
got my trike) and it just wriggled across the path in front of me. My
first reaction, before the rational part of my brain kicked in was sheer
panic ("Aargh! Snake! Run away!").

Well I don't get scared of snakes just because I see or think of one and I
have handled some nonpoisonous ones. They are pretty cool. If you can't
deal with that I would say you got a phobia.

I should have mentioned that I've quite happily had my photo taken with
a large constrictor and the thought of snakes per se doesn't bother me
(although I'd avoid poisonous ones for pragmatic reasons) - it was the
sudden appearance of this one that threw me.



However on a trip to Bornholm when I walked along a rockstrewn beach
something hissed very loudly at me. Dunno if it was a snake or what but
that was the connection my mind unconsciously made and I did a very good
impression of a human trying to levitate. Big jumps the hell away from the
sound. That was instinct kicking in.


Precisely!

This is what I (and Ed, I think) was getting at - hence my comment that
the panic was "My first reaction, before the rational part of my brain
kicked in "

I don't think I'm phobic about snakes at all, and I suspect we may
actually be in violent agreement here :-)

--
Carol Hague
"One evil at at time. That's the best I can do." - Crichton, _Farscape_

GeoB wrote:

Just the thought of snakes makes my skin crawl.
I think it is instinctive

Snakes I like. Except the mean ones, I don't like mean anything. But
spiders.... I have the Audubon book of insects and spiders. I
*never* let my fingers go between the pages where the spider photos
are! I wage incessant war on Black Widows.

That I can understand - they're a threat to you, so you don't want tham
in your house.

I don't mind spiders in the house, as we don't have any in the UK that
could do anything worse than startle me when they suddenly run across
the living room, but if we had Black Widows in the house I'd be killing
them too...(or possibly spinelessly running away and getting Himself to
do it :-))


snip

I was riding along a canal towpath (on a mountain bike,
before I got my trike) and it just wriggled across the
path in front of me.

What a treat to see some wild nature at first hand! In the wilderness
on horse-back once [1], a wolverine crossed right in front of me, in a
nasty thunderstorm's downpour. I believe he never saw me, and I was
close enough to count his toes. Love those types of encounters.

Well, once I got over the initial panic, I was pleased I'd seen him too.
I think he was a harmless grass snake - didn't have the distinctive "V"
shapes of an adder.

Once while riding on the moor roads between Wells and Glastonbury we met
a buzzard sitting in the middle of the road. We decided he had right of
way on account of having numerous sharp bits :-)

My favorite wildlife encounter though was when I was riding home from
work through a village with a stream running down the side of the road
and briefly saw a flash of metallic turquoise over the water. Beautiful
birds, kingfishers. Made me feel happy for some time afterwards, just
because I'd seen it...

snip

[1] I was on the horse, not the wolverine [2]
[2] I was sitting on the horse, I was not sitting on the wolverine.

Glad you cleared that up :-)

--
Carol Hague
"How fleeting are all human passions when compared to the massive
continuity of ducks." - Dorothy L. Sayers, _Gaudy Night_