another Chicago cyclist

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 12:09:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://wbbm780.radio.com/dodge-char...h-pulaski-park

The guy almost certainly was a cyclist, since he was standing with a
bike. But this should be counted as a pedestrian death, not a bicycling
death, because he was _standing_ with a bike.

I beg to differ. I researched this type of statistical problem a few
years ago. However, I'm not sure I can recall the exactly logic and
standards.

As I understand it, the means of transportation involved in the
accident is on the basis of whether the vehicle was involved in the
accident. The term "involved" is key here, as it can include a wide
variety of ways a person might be involved.

If someone stopped their car on a freeway, got out of the car, and was
hit by passing traffic, that person would NOT be considered a
pedestrian simply because they were not sitting in their car. It
would be a vehicle accident because a car was "involved". Similarly,
if someone was riding their bicycle, dismounted and was hit by a car,
it would still be a cycling accident because the vehicle "involved"
was a bicycle.

According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop
and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident?

Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus
it would be a grocery accident?

There is also something involving a persons intent to travel in some
manner. If their intent was to ride a bicycle or drive a car, even
though they were not riding or driving at that exact moment in time,
they would still be considered a bicycle rider or car driver, rather
than a pedestrian.

However, I don't know exactly how the statistics are tabulated. Does
a car versus bicycle accident count as one accident or two (one each
for the car and for the bicycle)? I thought it might be buried in
here, but I guess not:
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812507
There should be something on the NHTSA site, but I couldn't find it.
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov
--
Cheers

John B.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 06:26:58 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop
and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident?

Yep. If the majority of my trip was on the bicycle, and I stopped at
the LBS (local bike shop) for some parts, and/or I intended to ride
the bicycle home, it would be a bicycle accident.

However, if I arrived in my car, parked it in the LBS parking lot,
rode the bicycle into the LBS, and intended to return home in my car,
only to be hit by the bus, it would be a vehicle (bus) accident
because the bicycle was not my major means of transportation.

Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus
it would be a grocery accident?

Nope. My main means of transportation would have been as a
pedestrian, making it a pedestrian accident.

As I previously mentioned, I don't know if this is the logic used for
establishing accident statistics or blame.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/24/2018 7:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 06:26:58 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop
and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident?

Yep. If the majority of my trip was on the bicycle, and I stopped at
the LBS (local bike shop) for some parts, and/or I intended to ride
the bicycle home, it would be a bicycle accident.

However, if I arrived in my car, parked it in the LBS parking lot,
rode the bicycle into the LBS, and intended to return home in my car,
only to be hit by the bus, it would be a vehicle (bus) accident
because the bicycle was not my major means of transportation.

Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus
it would be a grocery accident?

Nope. My main means of transportation would have been as a
pedestrian, making it a pedestrian accident.

As I previously mentioned, I don't know if this is the logic used for
establishing accident statistics or blame.


As a student of the culture through newspapers, you just
need to carry. If by chance you're smacked while riding or
in a crosswalk you'll be 'another senseless firearm death'.

problem solved.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:02:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 06:26:58 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop
and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident?

Yep. If the majority of my trip was on the bicycle, and I stopped at
the LBS (local bike shop) for some parts, and/or I intended to ride
the bicycle home, it would be a bicycle accident.

However, if I arrived in my car, parked it in the LBS parking lot,
rode the bicycle into the LBS, and intended to return home in my car,
only to be hit by the bus, it would be a vehicle (bus) accident
because the bicycle was not my major means of transportation.

How about if I rode the bike to the shop yesterday to have the bar
tape replaced and I'm picking it up today without having ridden it
yet?

(I believe that the discussion has reached of being an example of a
point of nit picking :-)


Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus
it would be a grocery accident?

Nope. My main means of transportation would have been as a
pedestrian, making it a pedestrian accident.

As I previously mentioned, I don't know if this is the logic used for
establishing accident statistics or blame.
--
Cheers

John B.

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

There is also something involving a persons intent to travel in some
manner. If their intent was to ride a bicycle or drive a car, even
though they were not riding or driving at that exact moment in time,
they would still be considered a bicycle rider or car driver, rather
than a pedestrian.

If the person was walking to their car from their office, intending to
drive home, and was struck and killed in the street- would hat be a
pedestrian death or a driver death? Color me puzzled.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 21:48:45 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

There is also something involving a persons intent to travel in some
manner. If their intent was to ride a bicycle or drive a car, even
though they were not riding or driving at that exact moment in time,
they would still be considered a bicycle rider or car driver, rather
than a pedestrian.

If the person was walking to their car from their office, intending to
drive home, and was struck and killed in the street- would hat be a
pedestrian death or a driver death? Color me puzzled.

Pedestrian death. There was too much distance and too long a time
between when this person had last used the car or planned to use their
car, to be considered a driver death. Intent was also not totally
clear as they might have stopped and engaged in unrelated activities
on their way to walking to their car. Much depends on what is
considered a reasonable distance or time interval where this person
morphs from a pedestrian into a driver, which would give the coroner
some guidance on making the determination.

Try your luck. If a said person was out of gasoline and resorted to
pushing their car, and they were subsequently hit by a car, would that
be considered a pedestrian or automobile accident?

If a bicycle rider was clobbered by an eagle falling from the sky,
would that be considered a bicycle accident or an aviation accident?

If a cyclist rode his mountain bike into a construction site and fell
into a deep hole, would that be a cycling accident, construction
accident, or mining accident?

If a cyclist has a heart attack while riding, is it considered to be a
bicycling death, or did they die of natural causes? Actually, I know
the answer to that one. If it is not completely clear that someone
died in some specific artificial manner, it is considered a natural
death by default. Everything depends on the autopsy, which is
mandatory in Santa Cruz county (except if there is a physician in
attendance at the time of death). I suspect most of the fatal
accident statistics are derived from autopsy reports which would
specify the manner and cause of death and possibly assign the blame.

In my checkered past, I had some marginal experience with such things.
I worked for an insurance actuary calculating risks and costs
involving various types of accidents. Basically, I spent a disgusting
summer putting price tags on body parts[1]. I did not make the
determination as to the type of accident where I might have been able
to answer such questions with some authority. However, I know someone
who works in the local sheriff-coroners office. I'll ask if she knows
more on the topic.

[1] A few years earlier, I had working a mortuary as an "assistant
embalmer" which meant I pushed a broom and clean up the mess. I
attribute my ability to retain my lunch while discussing certain high
government officials to this experience.





--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558