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New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 29th 20, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,043
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

Another CCFL that makes a decent bicycle light (sorry Frank!):

* 3x AA or 1x 26650 or 1x 18650 battery (batteries not included)
* Spot to Flood Zoom
* 5 modes (high, medium, low, SOS, flash)
* No claim of lumens, just "high lumens," looks like around 900-1000
* Water-Resistant
* Must charge Li-Ion battery outside the light, charger not included, I
had this one that I got free at Interbike a few years ago
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074NYYS9Q
* A spacer sleeve to use an 18650 battery is included.
* A 3AA adpater is included.
* $12.99
* https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MP9RTHM

It's pretty rare these days to find a 3x AA light, a lot of the lights
use 3 AAA batteries which is not desirable.

It's also pretty rare to find a light that uses a 26650 Li-Ion battery,
the only one I recall in terms of real bicycle lights was the Barry
Beams Oculus light (which apparently is no longer available since when
you click on the "Buy" link you get a "Security Certificate" error).

The ability to use an 18650 battery is nice because these are much more
widely available than a 26650 battery.

Ads
  #2  
Old June 30th 20, 02:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,972
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Monday, 29 June 2020 18:42:44 UTC-4, sms wrote:
Another CCFL that makes a decent bicycle light (sorry Frank!):

* 3x AA or 1x 26650 or 1x 18650 battery (batteries not included)
* Spot to Flood Zoom
* 5 modes (high, medium, low, SOS, flash)
* No claim of lumens, just "high lumens," looks like around 900-1000
* Water-Resistant
* Must charge Li-Ion battery outside the light, charger not included, I
had this one that I got free at Interbike a few years ago
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074NYYS9Q
* A spacer sleeve to use an 18650 battery is included.
* A 3AA adpater is included.
* $12.99
* https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MP9RTHM

It's pretty rare these days to find a 3x AA light, a lot of the lights
use 3 AAA batteries which is not desirable.

It's also pretty rare to find a light that uses a 26650 Li-Ion battery,
the only one I recall in terms of real bicycle lights was the Barry
Beams Oculus light (which apparently is no longer available since when
you click on the "Buy" link you get a "Security Certificate" error).

The ability to use an 18650 battery is nice because these are much more
widely available than a 26650 battery.


Is this yet another of your guerrilla marketing ploys?

Cheers
  #3  
Old June 30th 20, 04:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,314
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:42:39 -0700, sms
wrote:

Another CCFL that makes a decent bicycle light (sorry Frank!):


Huh? CCFL is a Cold Cathode Fluorscent Light. The few I've seen are
either for colorful accent (visibility) bicycle lighting, or in an
automotive "halo ring" that seems more decorative than useful.
Something like this for a Mazda:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CCFL-Angel-Eye-Halo-Light-Ring-7000K-White-LED-Headlight-For-MAZDA-3-Sedan-PZ-/263752283408
What you found on Amazon seems to be an LED flashlight. It even says
so in the description:
"High Lumen LED chip delivers so much light..."
Am I missing something here?

? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MP9RTHM


Note the lack of any specifications for Lumens, beamwidth, StVZO/TA
compliance, etc.

It's pretty rare these days to find a 3x AA light, a lot of the lights
use 3 AAA batteries which is not desirable.


True. After the 1.5V AA alkaline batteries are depleted, some users
plug in three 16500 LiIon cells at 3.7V each, and blow up the
flashlight light.

The ability to use an 18650 battery is nice because these are much more
widely available than a 26650 battery.


I try to buy flashlights that fit 26550 cells because I can get a
cheap adapter sleeve to also fit an 18650 cell.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=26650+to+18650+adapter

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #4  
Old June 30th 20, 12:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,043
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On 6/29/2020 8:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:42:39 -0700, sms
wrote:

Another CCFL that makes a decent bicycle light (sorry Frank!):


Huh? CCFL is a Cold Cathode Fluorscent Light. The few I've seen are
either for colorful accent (visibility) bicycle lighting, or in an
automotive "halo ring" that seems more decorative than useful.
Something like this for a Mazda:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CCFL-Angel-Eye-Halo-Light-Ring-7000K-White-LED-Headlight-For-MAZDA-3-Sedan-PZ-/263752283408
What you found on Amazon seems to be an LED flashlight. It even says
so in the description:
"High Lumen LED chip delivers so much light..."
Am I missing something here?


Yes. I didn't want to spell it out as I think those that coined the
phrase are insensitive. I prefer, "Inexpensive Flashlight Manufactured
in China."

? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MP9RTHM


Note the lack of any specifications for Lumens, beamwidth, StVZO/TA
compliance, etc.


Yes. I think that the fact that they aren't making absurd lumen claims
is a good thing. All they'll say is that the LED they use is rated at
800-1000 lumens. The EU apparently now has a "useful lumens" standard.

It's pretty rare these days to find a 3x AA light, a lot of the lights
use 3 AAA batteries which is not desirable.


True. After the 1.5V AA alkaline batteries are depleted, some users
plug in three 16500 LiIon cells at 3.7V each, and blow up the
flashlight light.


I can't imagine that happening much since 16500 Li-Ion cells are not
something the average consumer would ever buy.


The ability to use an 18650 battery is nice because these are much more
widely available than a 26650 battery.


I try to buy flashlights that fit 26550 cells because I can get a
cheap adapter sleeve to also fit an 18650 cell.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=26650+to+18650+adapter


The diameter of a 26650 cell is smaller than the 3AA adapter or the
18650 adapter that came with this flashlight. It works without it, but I
worried about rattling so I put in a spacer so it fits snugly.

The real issue is finding protected 26650 cells that are accurately
rated. I haven't purchased these
https://www.orbtronic.com/26650-battery-protected-li-ion but from what
I read they actually test slightly higher than their rating. I saw that
the Oculus lights used 4500mAH 26650 cells which were probably the
highest capacity available when that light was introduced.

  #5  
Old June 30th 20, 05:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,314
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 04:32:31 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/29/2020 8:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:42:39 -0700, sms
wrote:

Another CCFL that makes a decent bicycle light (sorry Frank!):


Huh? CCFL is a Cold Cathode Fluorscent Light. The few I've seen are
either for colorful accent (visibility) bicycle lighting, or in an
automotive "halo ring" that seems more decorative than useful.
Something like this for a Mazda:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CCFL-Angel-Eye-Halo-Light-Ring-7000K-White-LED-Headlight-For-MAZDA-3-Sedan-PZ-/263752283408
What you found on Amazon seems to be an LED flashlight. It even says
so in the description:
"High Lumen LED chip delivers so much light..."
Am I missing something here?


Yes. I didn't want to spell it out as I think those that coined the
phrase are insensitive. I prefer, "Inexpensive Flashlight Manufactured
in China."


You might want to amend your original posting and change the CCFL to
LED.

? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MP9RTHM


Note the lack of any specifications for Lumens, beamwidth, StVZO/TA
compliance, etc.


Yes. I think that the fact that they aren't making absurd lumen claims
is a good thing. All they'll say is that the LED they use is rated at
800-1000 lumens. The EU apparently now has a "useful lumens" standard.


I presume that you believe that no specifications are an improvement
over inflated specifications. Well, that does offer considerable
maneuvering room between these extremes, but doesn't really help the
buyer determine the brightness of the light. Quite often, the same
offshore manufacturers inflate their numbers for lumens, but fail to
do so for current drain and battery life. Based on an average 100
lumens per watt efficiency, I can usually make a tolerable guess(tm)
as to the lumens output (minus the lens losses). The lack of any
specifications in the Amazon web page makes that impossible. However,
not to worry. I've been told in this very newsgroup that lumens are
not important and that beam pattern is what determines quality.
Perhaps you can convince the Amazon vendor into providing an inflated
beam pattern claim?

It's pretty rare these days to find a 3x AA light, a lot of the lights
use 3 AAA batteries which is not desirable.


True. After the 1.5V AA alkaline batteries are depleted, some users
plug in three 16500 LiIon cells at 3.7V each, and blow up the
flashlight light.


Oops. That should be a 14500 LiIon cell.

I can't imagine that happening much since 16500 Li-Ion cells are not
something the average consumer would ever buy.


They're being offered for sale all over eBay and Amazon:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Li-Ion+14500+battery
I've also repaired 3 such AA (14500) cell flashlights mostly be
replacing the AMC7135 current regulator chips. It's probably not a
common way to destroy a flashlight, but it happens. It also might be
a good reason why flashlight vendors are hesitant to supply AA
holders, while flashlights made for battery vendors have no such
hesitation.

The ability to use an 18650 battery is nice because these are much more
widely available than a 26650 battery.


I try to buy flashlights that fit 26550 cells because I can get a
cheap adapter sleeve to also fit an 18650 cell.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=26650+to+18650+adapter


The diameter of a 26650 cell is smaller than the 3AA adapter or the
18650 adapter that came with this flashlight. It works without it, but I
worried about rattling so I put in a spacer so it fits snugly.


Good point. The Amazon page says the OD (outside diameter) of the
light is 30 mm. The 26650 cell is 26 mm wide, leaving about 1 or 1.5
mm for the flashlight wall thickness. With 3 AA batteries, I
determined that they will fit into the 1 1/4" (31.75 mm) hole in an
ancient RapiDesign large circle template.
https://www.google.com/search?q=RapiDesign+large+circle+template&tbm=isch
I can do the trig if you want, but a circle template is easier and
quicker. There's no way a 32 mm dia three cell bundle is going to fit
into a 27 mm hole. 27 mm is about 1" diameter and my three cell AA
blundle doesn't come close to fitting into a 1" hole.

My guess(tm) is that the Amazon flashlight in question actually uses
three AAA cells.

There is such a thing as a three AA battery holder:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33010330793.html
Notice the OD of the battery holder is 30 mm, which is also the OD of
the flashlight. Unless the flashlight body were infinitely thin,
that's not going to work.

The real issue is finding protected 26650 cells that are accurately
rated. I haven't purchased these
https://www.orbtronic.com/26650-battery-protected-li-ion but from what
I read they actually test slightly higher than their rating. I saw that
the Oculus lights used 4500mAH 26650 cells which were probably the
highest capacity available when that light was introduced.


Accurately rating a LiIon cell is a bit of a challenge. Do you use
the industry de facto standard of measuring the discharge rate at
0.2C, which is useless for a flashlight that often operates at 1C or
more? If I wanted to see accurate capacity ratings, I would like to
see them tested at the operating current of the flashlight (and at
various temperatures), which means that the numbers need to come from
the flashlight vendor. Since they usually don't include batteries
with their flashlights, they usually ignore such a test. To their
credit, the high end bicycle light makers do supply batteries with
their lights, and usually supply accurate numbers.

"Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens". (Nick Diamos)

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #6  
Old June 30th 20, 05:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,972
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 12:25:53 UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 04:32:31 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/29/2020 8:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:42:39 -0700, sms
wrote:

Another CCFL that makes a decent bicycle light (sorry Frank!):

Huh? CCFL is a Cold Cathode Fluorscent Light. The few I've seen are
either for colorful accent (visibility) bicycle lighting, or in an
automotive "halo ring" that seems more decorative than useful.
Something like this for a Mazda:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CCFL-Angel-Eye-Halo-Light-Ring-7000K-White-LED-Headlight-For-MAZDA-3-Sedan-PZ-/263752283408
What you found on Amazon seems to be an LED flashlight. It even says
so in the description:
"High Lumen LED chip delivers so much light..."
Am I missing something here?


Yes. I didn't want to spell it out as I think those that coined the
phrase are insensitive. I prefer, "Inexpensive Flashlight Manufactured
in China."


You might want to amend your original posting and change the CCFL to
LED.

? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MP9RTHM

Note the lack of any specifications for Lumens, beamwidth, StVZO/TA
compliance, etc.


Yes. I think that the fact that they aren't making absurd lumen claims
is a good thing. All they'll say is that the LED they use is rated at
800-1000 lumens. The EU apparently now has a "useful lumens" standard.


I presume that you believe that no specifications are an improvement
over inflated specifications. Well, that does offer considerable
maneuvering room between these extremes, but doesn't really help the
buyer determine the brightness of the light. Quite often, the same
offshore manufacturers inflate their numbers for lumens, but fail to
do so for current drain and battery life. Based on an average 100
lumens per watt efficiency, I can usually make a tolerable guess(tm)
as to the lumens output (minus the lens losses). The lack of any
specifications in the Amazon web page makes that impossible. However,
not to worry. I've been told in this very newsgroup that lumens are
not important and that beam pattern is what determines quality.
Perhaps you can convince the Amazon vendor into providing an inflated
beam pattern claim?

It's pretty rare these days to find a 3x AA light, a lot of the lights
use 3 AAA batteries which is not desirable.

True. After the 1.5V AA alkaline batteries are depleted, some users
plug in three 16500 LiIon cells at 3.7V each, and blow up the
flashlight light.


Oops. That should be a 14500 LiIon cell.

I can't imagine that happening much since 16500 Li-Ion cells are not
something the average consumer would ever buy.


They're being offered for sale all over eBay and Amazon:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Li-Ion+14500+battery
I've also repaired 3 such AA (14500) cell flashlights mostly be
replacing the AMC7135 current regulator chips. It's probably not a
common way to destroy a flashlight, but it happens. It also might be
a good reason why flashlight vendors are hesitant to supply AA
holders, while flashlights made for battery vendors have no such
hesitation.

The ability to use an 18650 battery is nice because these are much more
widely available than a 26650 battery.

I try to buy flashlights that fit 26550 cells because I can get a
cheap adapter sleeve to also fit an 18650 cell.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=26650+to+18650+adapter


The diameter of a 26650 cell is smaller than the 3AA adapter or the
18650 adapter that came with this flashlight. It works without it, but I
worried about rattling so I put in a spacer so it fits snugly.


Good point. The Amazon page says the OD (outside diameter) of the
light is 30 mm. The 26650 cell is 26 mm wide, leaving about 1 or 1.5
mm for the flashlight wall thickness. With 3 AA batteries, I
determined that they will fit into the 1 1/4" (31.75 mm) hole in an
ancient RapiDesign large circle template.
https://www.google.com/search?q=RapiDesign+large+circle+template&tbm=isch
I can do the trig if you want, but a circle template is easier and
quicker. There's no way a 32 mm dia three cell bundle is going to fit
into a 27 mm hole. 27 mm is about 1" diameter and my three cell AA
blundle doesn't come close to fitting into a 1" hole.

My guess(tm) is that the Amazon flashlight in question actually uses
three AAA cells.

There is such a thing as a three AA battery holder:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33010330793.html
Notice the OD of the battery holder is 30 mm, which is also the OD of
the flashlight. Unless the flashlight body were infinitely thin,
that's not going to work.

The real issue is finding protected 26650 cells that are accurately
rated. I haven't purchased these
https://www.orbtronic.com/26650-battery-protected-li-ion but from what
I read they actually test slightly higher than their rating. I saw that
the Oculus lights used 4500mAH 26650 cells which were probably the
highest capacity available when that light was introduced.


Accurately rating a LiIon cell is a bit of a challenge. Do you use
the industry de facto standard of measuring the discharge rate at
0.2C, which is useless for a flashlight that often operates at 1C or
more? If I wanted to see accurate capacity ratings, I would like to
see them tested at the operating current of the flashlight (and at
various temperatures), which means that the numbers need to come from
the flashlight vendor. Since they usually don't include batteries
with their flashlights, they usually ignore such a test. To their
credit, the high end bicycle light makers do supply batteries with
their lights, and usually supply accurate numbers.

"Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens". (Nick Diamos)

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


I like an external battery pack on my bicycle headlights because in the dead of winter many internal batteries lose a LOT of run time. If the light is left on the bike for 1/2 hour or more outside in deep cold the internal battery may not run long at all. With an external battery pack I can tuck the battery on the inside of my jacket thereby greatly increasing my run time.

Cheers
  #7  
Old June 30th 20, 06:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,043
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On 6/30/2020 9:25 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I presume that you believe that no specifications are an improvement
over inflated specifications.


The inflated specification is in the product name. It may be that Amazon
is frowning on false product descriptions.

snip

Oops. That should be a 14500 LiIon cell.

I can't imagine that happening much since 16500 Li-Ion cells are not
something the average consumer would ever buy.


They're being offered for sale all over eBay and Amazon:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Li-Ion+14500+battery
I've also repaired 3 such AA (14500) cell flashlights mostly be
replacing the AMC7135 current regulator chips. It's probably not a
common way to destroy a flashlight, but it happens. It also might be
a good reason why flashlight vendors are hesitant to supply AA
holders, while flashlights made for battery vendors have no such
hesitation.


You can buy the dummy batteries to use with the 14500 cells and use one
14500 and two dummies (and in many cases one 14500 and one dummy).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133434659198

snip

My guess(tm) is that the Amazon flashlight in question actually uses
three AAA cells.


It comes with a 3AA adapter and an 18650 spacer.

snip

Accurately rating a LiIon cell is a bit of a challenge. Do you use
the industry de facto standard of measuring the discharge rate at
0.2C, which is useless for a flashlight that often operates at 1C or
more?


It is not useless to use the industry standard. It is known that that at
higher discharge rates the mAH rating is lower.
  #8  
Old June 30th 20, 08:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,988
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On 6/30/2020 12:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I've been told in this very newsgroup that lumens are
not important and that beam pattern is what determines quality.


Not by me, you haven't. Obviously, if the lumen output is too low even
the best beam pattern won't work. You can test that with a good German
headlight and a dead battery.

What is true is that most bike lights in America use beam patterns as
primitive as a stone axe. And many try to make up for that by blasting
out insane numbers of lumens. Those may be OK for mountain biking, but
they're inefficient and sometimes abusive to others on roads or MUPs.

Even 60 lumens, properly focused, gives a luxurious amount of light for
almost all bicycle riding conditions. There's no real reason for
hundreds and hundreds of lumens in an on-road bike light.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #9  
Old July 1st 20, 03:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,972
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 17:43:27 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/30/2020 12:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I've been told in this very newsgroup that lumens are
not important and that beam pattern is what determines quality.


Not by me, you haven't. Obviously, if the lumen output is too low even
the best beam pattern won't work. You can test that with a good German
headlight and a dead battery.

What is true is that most bike lights in America use beam patterns as
primitive as a stone axe. And many try to make up for that by blasting
out insane numbers of lumens. Those may be OK for mountain biking, but
they're inefficient and sometimes abusive to others on roads or MUPs.

Even 60 lumens, properly focused, gives a luxurious amount of light for
almost all bicycle riding conditions. There's no real reason for
hundreds and hundreds of lumens in an on-road bike light.

--
- Frank Krygowski


There is if if you are riding a dark country road at night and want to see critters a fair distance away so that you don't startle them. Sixty lumens is nowhere near enough light for the roads I ride around here at night. I want to see the skunks before I startle them.

As usual, your needs/wants vary from a lot of others.

Cheers
  #10  
Old July 1st 20, 05:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,314
Default New CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 10:03:20 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/30/2020 9:25 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I presume that you believe that no specifications are an improvement
over inflated specifications.


The inflated specification is in the product name. It may be that Amazon
is frowning on false product descriptions.


Oddly, I've never considered the possibility of inflating the letters
of the alphabet. I usually limit myself to inflating numbers.

snip


sniff

You can buy the dummy batteries to use with the 14500 cells and use one
14500 and two dummies (and in many cases one 14500 and one dummy).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133434659198


Ummm... did you read the fine print?
Can only be used with lithium iron phosphate battery
and lithium battery.
How to use: If your product uses 2 AA batteries, you
can use one rechargeable 3V battery plus one fake
battery to replace 2 AA batteries.
This dummy battery won't work with ordinarily Li-Ion cells.

snip


sniff again

My guess(tm) is that the Amazon flashlight in question actually uses
three AAA cells.


It comes with a 3AA adapter and an 18650 spacer.


Did you order one to see what arrives? Or, did you email the vendor
and ask what size cell fits in the 3 cell adapter? I'm too lazy to do
so, but maybe you could spare a few dollars and an email to backup
your claims?

snip


sniff yet again. Thou doth snip too much, methinks

Accurately rating a LiIon cell is a bit of a challenge. Do you use
the industry de facto standard of measuring the discharge rate at
0.2C, which is useless for a flashlight that often operates at 1C or
more?


It is not useless to use the industry standard. It is known that that at
higher discharge rates the mAH rating is lower.


Yep. Standards are very useful. I this case, the 0.2C de facto
standard was contrived to increase the battery capacity (ma-hrs)
numbers. Bigger numbers are better. However, battery specs are some
other vendors problem. This vendor is just selling a flashlight. Too
bad he can't be troubled to install an ammeter in series with his
favored battery and actually measure the flashlight current drain.

Nice of you to snip my section on trying to cram three AA cells, with
a total OD of about 32 mm, into a flashlight which has an OD of 30 mm
and a probable ID of 28 mm. That's not going to fit, not matter how
you inflate or deflate the numbers. Do you still believe he's
supplying a 3xAA adapter? I hope not.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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