three questions

Doug Landau writes:

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 10:50:02 AM UTC-7, davethedave wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 09:08:24 -0700, Doug Landau wrote:

snip

My van holds up a decked roof rack .... tho placement is with lathe
screws or drywall/construction electric drill screws once the rig
is in place n adjusted everything is bolted down with G5 .25" rod
then nuts sealed with blue Loctite.

In a new state eventually law will come around for a visual
inspection.


Really? Our lathe screw is 3/4 inch x 4 feet long. How many of those
did you use for this project?

What a difference an 'e' makes.

You love the world and want to hug everyone. Everything is really funny
and you lath a lot.
--
davethedave

not me

im one of those poor souls who reacts the opposite way

You're one of those that can't help giggling when someone loses an eye,
right?

--

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 20:31:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 21:46:00 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The threads have sharp edges and do a good
job of shaving the edges of the hole until
the screw comes loose. Replacing such a wood
screw with a larger size screw will just cut
a bigger hole in the deck.

Good points.

Nope. The screw only has one point.

As long as things are moving, epoxy won't
work. It's not flexible and will crack.
Rubber gaskets might help if the deck is
flexing, but if the damage is caused by
someone walking on the deck plate, then
rubber will simply increase the amount
of movement.

If we assume no one will walk on the plates, do
they still move enough so that epoxy won't
work?

I can't answer that. The problem is that you haven't disclosed the
type of wood decking, number of layers, thickness, condition of the
wood, surface finish, preservatives used, type of deck plate, type of
fasteners, size of fasteners, number of fasteners, etc. In other
words, what you have to work with. I can't tell from here. If the
wood is soft, soaked with water, and the fasteners have shallow
threads, any movement is going to turn the soft wood in the hole to
sawdust or mush. The problem is that there is no way that the deck is
going to be totally rigid. Wooden boats creak and groan, which are
all signs of fasteners sliding in and out of holes in the wood. It's
the same noises you hear walking on a badly installed oak floor.


Fastening the hull planking on expensive wooden hull yachts was often
done with bronze screws and no special problems arose.

Epoxy is a different nightmare. The problem is that it's great in
compression, fairly good in tension, and miserable in torsion
(bending). In other words, it's easy to break if you bend an epoxy
glued joint, which is what might happen if someone steps on the joint.
For the major structures and laminated parts on a wooden boat, epoxy
is great because those are mostly in compression. It's also great for
gluing in wooden hole plugs. However if you use epoxy for repairs,
and the joint moves as in a wood screw holding down a moving deck
plate, it can break.

Using epoxy which forms a very strong and solid bond is not normally
recommended on wooden constructions that are not entirely waterproofed
as if the wooden structure is not waterproof it absorbs moisture
changes shape while the glue joints do not.

Article on the different wooden boat fixit glues:
http://www.tonygrove.com/articles/boat-repair-adhesives.php

The reason I put hopes in epoxy is
because doing all this the dowel or "rotate"
way is a lot of work. What especially makes me
discouraged is all the things, already in their
right places, that has to be removed first.
But of course, if it needs to be done it is not
something that is impossible to do.

Well, if you like epoxy so much, perhaps you should sell the wooden
boat and get a fiberglass and epoxy replacement? I can't tell how
much time and work would be saved by using epoxy instead of wooden
dowels and plugs.

Think about using FH bolts, washers, and
captive nuts to secure the deck plate, or
just fix whatever is causing the flexing or
fastener movement.

FH bolts, does that require drilling down to
the other side, i.e. thru the ceiling, to
release the wings?

I'm not suggesting drywall expanding fasteners. I'm guessing that you
might have access to the underside of the deck through the cabin or
bilge. If so, you can install a fastener that does not require
screwing into the wood, such as a nut, bolt, and washer sandwich.
Maybe a nut plate, captive nut, or pronged tee nut can be used.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pronged+tee+nut+stainless&tbm=isch

Perhaps it might be more useful to ask in a wooden boat forum?
http://forum.woodenboat.com
https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+boat+forum

Obligatory mention of bicycling:
Does a wooden boat always have a wood frame bicycle for shore travel?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 6:22:46 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 07:12:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

None of these ancient ships would be sailable without quite a bit of knowledge that is lacking - they probably aren't caulked so that the wood can expand and contract with humidity without pushing the caulking out. The caulking of a ship this large was not a hit or miss affair. You had to know exactly how much caulking to put into each joint so that in the end as the wood expanded in the water it wouldn't simply push the caulking out or splinter the boards. Remember that the planking was so heavy that cannon could bounce off.

Well, as the Constitution is floating it is quite obviously caulked
:-) and the under water portions of the hull do not expand and
contract with humidity :-)

All of the photos I've seen of the Constitution it is in dry storage.

And while caulking a wooden hull is almost a lost art in the U.S. it
is still practiced in other parts of the world so if that was the
problem it is solvable.

NO other parts of the world caulk 20" thick hulls.

From the article I read on her last rebuild the hull was in such bad
condition, structurally, that the Navy didn't want to take the chance
of sailing her under her own power and she was towed to her present
mooring.


Small wooden craft could be single planked and caulked, or ship lap or double planked (and sometimes triple planked). I sailed on most of them. But fiberglas really was the best way to go. The maintenance was reduced so much it's unbelievable.

That isn't necessarily correct. I've actually walked on the sunken
hulk of a 4 masted schooner that was planked with a single layer of 6
inch thick planks and the Constitution was called "iron sides
because some round shot bounced off in one single battle not because
she was bullet proof.

If you think that 20" of American oak siding only had "some round hot bouncing off" than you are unaware of naval tactics which were exactly the same until today - artillery is aimed at the water line to open the hull.

Not true at all, at least in 18th century navies as capturing the ship
was financially advantageous to both the officers and crew who were
paid the value of the ship as determined by a navel court.

Secondly 18th century cannon were smooth bore and extremely
inaccurate. While firing might start at perhaps a mile range this was
normally an attempt to damage the opponents mast and rigging in order
to limit his ability to maneuver which would allow closing the enemy
and boarding.

I've sailed on just about everything but a square rigger. r raced everything from 22' to over 50' and from day-on-the-bay to the length of the California Pacific coast. I was the navigator and watch captain. Using a sexton I could tell you the distance off-shore with simple algebra.

Come off it. Every school kid that takes algebra in grade school can
do that.


The fact that you swam over a sunken wreck doesn't mean that there was anything left of it. Shipworm had to completely infest any wood left and there couldn't be anything other than an empty shell.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 10:17:17 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 6:22:46 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 07:12:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

None of these ancient ships would be sailable without quite a bit of knowledge that is lacking - they probably aren't caulked so that the wood can expand and contract with humidity without pushing the caulking out. The caulking of a ship this large was not a hit or miss affair. You had to know exactly how much caulking to put into each joint so that in the end as the wood expanded in the water it wouldn't simply push the caulking out or splinter the boards. Remember that the planking was so heavy that cannon could bounce off.

Well, as the Constitution is floating it is quite obviously caulked
:-) and the under water portions of the hull do not expand and
contract with humidity :-)

All of the photos I've seen of the Constitution it is in dry storage.

And while caulking a wooden hull is almost a lost art in the U.S. it
is still practiced in other parts of the world so if that was the
problem it is solvable.

NO other parts of the world caulk 20" thick hulls.

From the article I read on her last rebuild the hull was in such bad
condition, structurally, that the Navy didn't want to take the chance
of sailing her under her own power and she was towed to her present
mooring.


Small wooden craft could be single planked and caulked, or ship lap or double planked (and sometimes triple planked). I sailed on most of them. But fiberglas really was the best way to go. The maintenance was reduced so much it's unbelievable.

That isn't necessarily correct. I've actually walked on the sunken
hulk of a 4 masted schooner that was planked with a single layer of 6
inch thick planks and the Constitution was called "iron sides
because some round shot bounced off in one single battle not because
she was bullet proof.

If you think that 20" of American oak siding only had "some round hot bouncing off" than you are unaware of naval tactics which were exactly the same until today - artillery is aimed at the water line to open the hull.

Not true at all, at least in 18th century navies as capturing the ship
was financially advantageous to both the officers and crew who were
paid the value of the ship as determined by a navel court.

Secondly 18th century cannon were smooth bore and extremely
inaccurate. While firing might start at perhaps a mile range this was
normally an attempt to damage the opponents mast and rigging in order
to limit his ability to maneuver which would allow closing the enemy
and boarding.

I've sailed on just about everything but a square rigger. r raced everything from 22' to over 50' and from day-on-the-bay to the length of the California Pacific coast. I was the navigator and watch captain. Using a sexton I could tell you the distance off-shore with simple algebra.

Come off it. Every school kid that takes algebra in grade school can
do that.


The fact that you swam over a sunken wreck doesn't mean that there was anything left of it. Shipworm had to completely infest any wood left and there couldn't be anything other than an empty shell.
--
Cheers,

John B.


C is the ancient mariner !

JS, everything is painted n sealed

but here

fiberglass is real

https://www.westmarine.com/boat-paint-solvents

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 7:17:17 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
I've sailed on just about everything but a square rigger. I raced everything from 22' to over 50' and from day-on-the-bay to the length of the California Pacific coast. I was the navigator and watch captain. Using a sexton I could tell you the distance off-shore with simple algebra.

Come off it. Every school kid that takes algebra in grade school can
do that.

Then why was I called from the Golden Gate Yacht Club again and again to provide navigation even after they had GPS available? Oh, that's right - any grade school kid could navigate.

Or maybe it's because I was the only one that would go up the mast in a seaway and put the jib halyard back on the masthead pulley. Try that on a 65 foot mast.

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 8:23:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 7:17:17 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
I've sailed on just about everything but a square rigger. I raced everything from 22' to over 50' and from day-on-the-bay to the length of the California Pacific coast. I was the navigator and watch captain. Using a sexton I could tell you the distance off-shore with simple algebra.

Come off it. Every school kid that takes algebra in grade school can
do that.

Then why was I called from the Golden Gate Yacht Club again and again to provide navigation even after they had GPS available? Oh, that's right - any grade school kid could navigate.

Or maybe it's because I was the only one that would go up the mast in a seaway and put the jib halyard back on the masthead pulley. Try that on a 65 foot mast.

You got a pic of yourself up a Mast Tom?

On 7/23/2017 6:44 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
1) What does for example 7075-T6 mean?
It's a system that designates aluminum alloys (7075) and heat treatment
(T6).
Different countries have their own systems. I think it's a USA thing.

2) A guy has had a flat tire several times but
the tire looks OK. The suspicion is, if the
rim tape is too broad for the rim so it
forms a flat "U" letter, and what happens is
the ends cut thru the tube. Is this heard
of? The rim tape is from Specialized.
It looks a little broad but I wouldn't have
noticed unless there was this
little mystery.
Dunno really. He could try trimming the strip a bit narrower with some
scissors. Seems to be little to lose at this point.

3) On a boat I'm working on, there are several
cases where the screws are loose in their
holes. What do you typically do?
Get a longer screw? Or do you use Loctite,
crazy-glue, etc.?

Thank you

I dunno squat about boats, and even less about wood boats.
I *do* know that crazy glue is water-soluble, which would seem to be the
wrong thing to use on a boat. Or anything that gets wet much...
I would guess you'd want to use epoxy or polyester resin.

Also there is an issue of the wood condition here... I know of people
who had wooden boats who let them rot away, because they weren't sealed
properly at some point in the past and the wood (they said) was already
gone bad. It still looked useful to /me/, but they said all the wood was
too soft now to bother fixing any of it.

I dunno squat about boats

Just read this then you will know all you need to know:

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...fgSLc5B6SddsM:

With the "rotate deck plate" solution, does it
make sense to impregnate the wood below?
What do you use if so? Tung?

Also, does it make sense to fill the holes from
the previous drillings/screws to prevent water
from getting in? What do you use if so?
Putty or just sawdust and wood glue?

Another question, when you buy diesel, you get
it in 5 l plastic cans. Is it safe to use those
onboard, or should you stick to those bulky
old-school red steel cans?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 12:52:14 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 10:50:02 AM UTC-7, davethedave wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 09:08:24 -0700, Doug Landau wrote:

snip

My van holds up a decked roof rack .... tho placement is with lathe
screws or drywall/construction electric drill screws once the rig
is in place n adjusted everything is bolted down with G5 .25" rod
then nuts sealed with blue Loctite.

In a new state eventually law will come around for a visual
inspection.


Really? Our lathe screw is 3/4 inch x 4 feet long. How many of those
did you use for this project?

What a difference an 'e' makes.

You love the world and want to hug everyone. Everything is really funny
and you lath a lot.
--
davethedave

not me

im one of those poor souls who reacts the opposite way

You're one of those that can't help giggling when someone loses an eye,
right?

No. I'm one of those poor souls who, at an E party, gets introverted, and notices, around 3AM, that he is alone downstairs, and hasn't seen hide nor hair of anyone else in 2-3 hours DOH!