Cable inTop Tube

On Tue, 10 May 2016 17:09:59 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Tue, 10 May 2016 08:37:10
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 09 May 2016 10:11:15 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-06 18:41, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 10:05:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 19:05, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.


Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...comp_ti_xv.htm


According to the advert that is a deal where you send them your money
and they ship sometime in the future.


There should be no risk with credit cards. Bike doesn't come - contest
the charge and demand it back. Then the dealer is on the hook. Provided
your credit card issuer is a reputable one.

Actually not. If he has actually got your money then it is gone. the
only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
company..

Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.

Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
walked away and started a new company.

Here in the UK, the card company is regarded in law as a party to the
contract (legally, I believe that the business sells the goods to the
CC company, which then sells them to you), so if you don't get the
goods, the CC company have to refund you. Of course, if that happens
they attempt to get the money back from the original vendor, but
that's their problem, not yours.
This does mean that they (the CC companies) do take a bit more care
over who they will give vendor accounts to, and in turn that it's
quite difficult to set up that kind of scam - because the CC company
(bank, usually) takes steps to make sure that the businesses they
trade with actually do have goods and fulfil orders.
They also set a much higher bar for what is known as "cardholder not
present" trading, so a company can accept cards for in-store purchases
much more easily than they can sell the same good by mail or internet
order.

A friend bought three bikes there and delivery was fast. They state
what's in stock. One is a titanium MTB that seems almost indestructible.
The other two are fat bikes which ride great.


This was some years ago, but the system that the magazine uncovered
was three individuals, or groups of individuals, that set up a
business in the L.A. basin. The groups then used references from the
initial business to establish credit for another business. Then used
the two businesses top establish another business.

Then one of the businesses would take one page adverts in the computer
magazine for low priced hard disks. When sufficient credit card orders
had been taken they cleaned out the bank account and literally walked
away. But in the mean time the original three businesses had been used
to establish more businesses and so on and so on.

At the time a single whole page advert in a major computer magazine
was several thousand dollars so eventually the magazine got a bit
upset and started trying to collect and no one was there.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2016-05-10 19:11, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2016 07:52:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-09 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 09 May 2016 10:11:15 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-06 18:41, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 10:05:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 19:05, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.


Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...comp_ti_xv.htm


According to the advert that is a deal where you send them your money
and they ship sometime in the future.


There should be no risk with credit cards. Bike doesn't come - contest
the charge and demand it back. Then the dealer is on the hook. Provided
your credit card issuer is a reputable one.

Actually not. If he has actually got your money then it is gone.


No. At least not in the US. They can (and will) pull it right back out
of their merchant account if fraud is suspected.

What merchant account? The one that they have withdrawn nearly all the
funds from?


They will have to refund that chunk of money. Else they are committing
fraud and the credit card issuer will go after them. No matter because
you as the credit card holder will be held harmless. Provided that your
case is valid and the credit card issues is reputable.


... the
only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
company..


A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
around, client leave.


Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.

Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
walked away and started a new company.


The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
That's key.

You don't understand. The fraudulent companies, as soon as they had
made sufficient "sales" closed the accounts, or drew the bulk of the
money out, and walked away.


That's between the credit card issuer and the merchant and will result
in criminal or civil prosecution. The customer who bought with a credit
card has nothing to do with that. He will get his money back if he has a
valid claim. At least that's how it is here. If it isn't in Thailand I'd
be careful with credit card use.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

One of the ways the UK (and possibly the EU) are better at protecting consumers than the USA. I know it is not acceptable to many that anything could be better outside the USA, but in the UK, if you purchase goods with a credit card, or a Visa debit card, over £100 (about $150) and they don't arrive or are not "fit for purpose" you can claim the cost back from the card issuer (who then has to deal with the seller).

Many years ago, you could hold the USA up as a champion of consumer rights, but no more. Reatail price fixing is rife, thanks to SCOTUS rulings. Look at the restrictions on US online sales (no Lawyerized bikes sold online) when in the UK, that would be illegal (although there are still ways to twist arms).

I wanted to pick up a pair of Lawyerized cycle shoes on clearance at a large Boston shop, but they could NOT ship them to my US address, I HAD to collect them in person. The deal was good enough to make the effort. Too bad it was the day of the Boston Marathon bombing... Thanks, Mike

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 3:52:42 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-09 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 09 May 2016 10:11:15 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-06 18:41, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 10:05:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 19:05, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.


Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...comp_ti_xv.htm


According to the advert that is a deal where you send them your money
and they ship sometime in the future.


There should be no risk with credit cards. Bike doesn't come - contest
the charge and demand it back. Then the dealer is on the hook. Provided
your credit card issuer is a reputable one.

Actually not. If he has actually got your money then it is gone.


No. At least not in the US. They can (and will) pull it right back out
of their merchant account if fraud is suspected.


... the
only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
company..


A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
around, client leave.


Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.

Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
walked away and started a new company.


The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
That's key.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wed, 11 May 2016 10:06:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-10 19:11, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2016 07:52:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-09 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 09 May 2016 10:11:15 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-06 18:41, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 10:05:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 19:05, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.


Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...comp_ti_xv.htm


According to the advert that is a deal where you send them your money
and they ship sometime in the future.


There should be no risk with credit cards. Bike doesn't come - contest
the charge and demand it back. Then the dealer is on the hook. Provided
your credit card issuer is a reputable one.

Actually not. If he has actually got your money then it is gone.


No. At least not in the US. They can (and will) pull it right back out
of their merchant account if fraud is suspected.

What merchant account? The one that they have withdrawn nearly all the
funds from?


They will have to refund that chunk of money. Else they are committing
fraud and the credit card issuer will go after them. No matter because
you as the credit card holder will be held harmless. Provided that your
case is valid and the credit card issues is reputable.

That was the point I was trying to get across. They were committing
Fraud.


... the
only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
company..


A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
around, client leave.


Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.

Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
walked away and started a new company.


The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
That's key.

You don't understand. The fraudulent companies, as soon as they had
made sufficient "sales" closed the accounts, or drew the bulk of the
money out, and walked away.


That's between the credit card issuer and the merchant and will result
in criminal or civil prosecution. The customer who bought with a credit
card has nothing to do with that. He will get his money back if he has a
valid claim. At least that's how it is here. If it isn't in Thailand I'd
be careful with credit card use.

As I tried to explain. No one was interested in prosecuting the
fraudulent people. The Computer magazine went to the local police, the
county sheriff and finally the FBI and everyone of them found an
excuse NOT to investigate.


--
cheers,

John B.

On 2016-05-11 17:40, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2016 10:06:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-10 19:11, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2016 07:52:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-09 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 09 May 2016 10:11:15 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-06 18:41, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 10:05:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 19:05, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.


Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...comp_ti_xv.htm


According to the advert that is a deal where you send them your money
and they ship sometime in the future.


There should be no risk with credit cards. Bike doesn't come - contest
the charge and demand it back. Then the dealer is on the hook. Provided
your credit card issuer is a reputable one.

Actually not. If he has actually got your money then it is gone.


No. At least not in the US. They can (and will) pull it right back out
of their merchant account if fraud is suspected.

What merchant account? The one that they have withdrawn nearly all the
funds from?


They will have to refund that chunk of money. Else they are committing
fraud and the credit card issuer will go after them. No matter because
you as the credit card holder will be held harmless. Provided that your
case is valid and the credit card issues is reputable.

That was the point I was trying to get across. They were committing
Fraud.


My point was that it's not your problem. It is the credit card issuer's
problem.

You get your money back and live happily ever after. At least until the
next front tire blow-out.

... the
only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
company..


A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
around, client leave.


Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.

Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
walked away and started a new company.


The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
That's key.

You don't understand. The fraudulent companies, as soon as they had
made sufficient "sales" closed the accounts, or drew the bulk of the
money out, and walked away.


That's between the credit card issuer and the merchant and will result
in criminal or civil prosecution. The customer who bought with a credit
card has nothing to do with that. He will get his money back if he has a
valid claim. At least that's how it is here. If it isn't in Thailand I'd
be careful with credit card use.

As I tried to explain. No one was interested in prosecuting the
fraudulent people. The Computer magazine went to the local police, the
county sheriff and finally the FBI and everyone of them found an
excuse NOT to investigate.


And that excuse was?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-05-11 16:30, Steve Patriquen wrote:
One of the ways the UK (and possibly the EU) are better at protecting
consumers than the USA. I know it is not acceptable to many that
anything could be better outside the USA, but in the UK, if you
purchase goods with a credit card, or a Visa debit card, over £100
(about $150) and they don't arrive or are not "fit for purpose" you
can claim the cost back from the card issuer (who then has to deal
with the seller).


I don't quite see how that is much different from here. The consumer
files a grievance and then the merchant has to duke it out with the
credit card issuer.


Many years ago, you could hold the USA up as a champion of consumer
rights, but no more. Reatail price fixing is rife, thanks to SCOTUS
rulings.


In the US I think there is even click-based active price jacking which I
consider mischievous. Sometimes I look at a product, look somewhere
else, back and forth, and suddenly it pops up in price. Well, we are a
free society so I simply buy at a competitor.


... Look at the restrictions on US online sales (no Lawyerized
bikes sold online) when in the UK, that would be illegal (although
there are still ways to twist arms).


Which restrictions?

http://bikesdirect.com/

You can order from there if you arrange freight and if payment is
through a US banking institution. They just don't want to get into the
middle of a customs skirmish or exorbitant money transfer fee disputes.

Often bike merchants line up assembly and adjustment services through
their stores and that is something they obviously can't do overseas.
Like these guys:

http://www.performancebike.com/webap...1_FreeShipping


I wanted to pick up a pair of Lawyerized cycle shoes on clearance at
a large Boston shop, but they could NOT ship them to my US address, I
HAD to collect them in person. The deal was good enough to make the
effort. Too bad it was the day of the Boston Marathon bombing...
Thanks, Mike


What's a "lawyerized cycle shoe"? I buy most of my shoes online and they
arrive via mail or another shipping service. Wearing a pair right now.
But I don't wear cleats shoes, ever.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/