Benefits of tubular tires?

DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:14:56 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Doug Landau wrote:

... I think a softer ride due to lower PSI and better cornering

are what most people would say. I get the same on 23mm rims with 23mm

tires.



I don't understand. I am not a racer and have never ridden a tubular,

unless perhaps for a few yards while test-riding a used bike. Anyway

what I don't understand is that 23mm sounds hard and skinny to me; I

usually buy 25s, and occasionally 23s if they are on sale or if 25s tend

to rub the frame as they did on my kestrel.



I've always thot that 25s are for training or recreational riding, and 23

is what one would race on, and that they would require a few more PSI,

and think I read here that they actually offer more rolling resistance -

inflated to 120 or 125 - than 25s, inflated to 110 or 115. Cuz they're so hard.



Is it that the above is miscalibrated, that a Real(tm) racing tire is a

20, and you think of 23s as training tires, and by soft u mean in comparison to 20s?



Also, what is the significance of the 23mm rim with?



https://www.hedcycling.com/ardennes/...content=PLUSsl



--

duane

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I doahn know what here but let me offer a mental exercise on the question.

The clincher supports the contact area with sidewalls fastened to the rim
.Sidewalls are designed for support and grip. As the contact patch moves
around the tread, the sidewall resists contact movement as it is
supportive and hinged. Cornering increases the resistance with a sideways scrubbing vector.

The tubular in comparison supports itself neither hinged, grippy nor as
resistant for the contact patch is allowed much greater freedom of
movement thus less frictional qualities as the patch moves around the rim.

In cornering, esp clumsy cornering, one see the patch floating for road
grip compared to the clincher in a more fixed position with more slide than float.

We would see the tubular in an auto racing tire category not a street category.

Here we smeel Pirelli, a very fast street tire giving the same probs as a
tubular street tire.

Go ahead, like CF and rose joints on rougher roads, and play with it but accept the costs.

I don't use tubulars. OP asked why one would use them. My guess is
cornering and lower (or higher) psi depending on who you ask.

--
duane

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:30:11 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
... I think a softer ride due to lower PSI and better cornering

are what most people would say. I get the same on 23mm rims with 23mm

tires.



I don't understand. I am not a racer and have never ridden a tubular, unless perhaps for a few yards while test-riding a used bike. Anyway what I don't understand is that 23mm sounds hard and skinny to me; I usually buy 25s, and occasionally 23s if they are on sale or if 25s tend to rub the frame as they did on my kestrel.



I've always thot that 25s are for training or recreational riding, and 23 is what one would race on, and that they would require a few more PSI, and think I read here that they actually offer more rolling resistance - inflated to 120 or 125 - than 25s, inflated to 110 or 115. Cuz they're so hard.



Is it that the above is miscalibrated, that a Real(tm) racing tire is a 20, and you think of 23s as training tires, and by soft u mean in comparison to 20s?



Also, what is the significance of the 23mm rim with?

In to the wayback machine! So, in 1978 Michelin comes out with the first lightweight folding clincher, the Bib TS -- svelt 19mm. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NIB-VINTAG...-/151062382666

IIRC, that shortly morphs in to the Elan. By 1980 we get the Specialized Turbo. Both of those tires were slightly wider, but not much. 20mm clincher becomes the standard alternate to sew-ups. I rode on 19mm and 20mm Turbos and later versions of the Elans, the SuperCompHDs.

The were hard, dead and heavy compared to the best tubulars of the day -- which were not all that expensive, maybe $19 for a good Vittoria or Clement cotton tire. I didn't like silks for a number of reasons. Most amateurs still raced on sew-ups.

These clinchers went with relatively heavy (maybe 450g, haven't checked) Mavic ModEs, so that was another reason people stuck with sew-ups.

Tires improve. The SuperCompHD coverts a lot of lazy amateurs to using clinchers. Continental launches an offensive in about 1990 touting fatter tires as lower rolling resistance. The herd starts trending towards 23s.

1995 we get silica tread compounds from Michelin. A lot of former sew-up manufacturers are moving into the clincher world. Clinchers improve dramatically, and the lazy amateurs, including me, become less interested in coping with glue tubes, needles and thread.

Racing clincher standard settles on 23mm, but some are using 25mm tires because they are magical. I use them in winter (Conti 4Seasons). Velocity and others come out with 23mm wide rims which increases the contact patch of 23mm tires. Racing bikes are basically built around 23mm and 25mm tires, although even that is changing with "gravel" bikes, etc.

But wait . . . along with LPs and disco, some people are trending back to sew-ups (or never left them) because they still ride well and produce the lightest possible wheel. These are generally rich people with time on their hands. The lazy former amateur racers, like me, have stuck with clinchers -- although I still own a pair of sew-up wheels. Track wheels -- ancient Ergals on Campy HF. I would be afraid to ride them at my weight.

-- Jay Beattie.

too heavy ?

who rides these wheels ? dwarfs ?

http://lindsayhart.com/wp-content/up...lg-120x182.jpg

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:52:13 PM UTC-7, x wrote:
too heavy ?



who rides these wheels ? dwarfs ?



http://lindsayhart.com/wp-content/up...lg-120x182.jpg

On the road, yes, midgets only. They're only 280g rims. I could still ride them on the track with basically zero dish wheels. I don't think they would be too happy as a highly dished modern road wheel under a 210lb rider.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/27/2014 8:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:30:11 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
... I think a softer ride due to lower PSI and better cornering

are what most people would say. I get the same on 23mm rims with 23mm

tires.



I don't understand. I am not a racer and have never ridden a tubular, unless perhaps for a few yards while test-riding a used bike. Anyway what I don't understand is that 23mm sounds hard and skinny to me; I usually buy 25s, and occasionally 23s if they are on sale or if 25s tend to rub the frame as they did on my kestrel.



I've always thot that 25s are for training or recreational riding, and 23 is what one would race on, and that they would require a few more PSI, and think I read here that they actually offer more rolling resistance - inflated to 120 or 125 - than 25s, inflated to 110 or 115. Cuz they're so hard.



Is it that the above is miscalibrated, that a Real(tm) racing tire is a 20, and you think of 23s as training tires, and by soft u mean in comparison to 20s?



Also, what is the significance of the 23mm rim with?

In to the wayback machine! So, in 1978 Michelin comes out with the first lightweight folding clincher, the Bib TS -- svelt 19mm. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NIB-VINTAG...-/151062382666

IIRC, that shortly morphs in to the Elan. By 1980 we get the Specialized Turbo. Both of those tires were slightly wider, but not much. 20mm clincher becomes the standard alternate to sew-ups. I rode on 19mm and 20mm Turbos and later versions of the Elans, the SuperCompHDs.

The were hard, dead and heavy compared to the best tubulars of the day -- which were not all that expensive, maybe $19 for a good Vittoria or Clement cotton tire. I didn't like silks for a number of reasons. Most amateurs still raced on sew-ups.

These clinchers went with relatively heavy (maybe 450g, haven't checked) Mavic ModEs, so that was another reason people stuck with sew-ups.

Tires improve. The SuperCompHD coverts a lot of lazy amateurs to using clinchers. Continental launches an offensive in about 1990 touting fatter tires as lower rolling resistance. The herd starts trending towards 23s.

1995 we get silica tread compounds from Michelin. A lot of former sew-up manufacturers are moving into the clincher world. Clinchers improve dramatically, and the lazy amateurs, including me, become less interested in coping with glue tubes, needles and thread.

Racing clincher standard settles on 23mm, but some are using 25mm tires because they are magical. I use them in winter (Conti 4Seasons). Velocity and others come out with 23mm wide rims which increases the contact patch of 23mm tires. Racing bikes are basically built around 23mm and 25mm tires, although even that is changing with "gravel" bikes, etc.

But wait . . . along with LPs and disco, some people are trending back to sew-ups (or never left them) because they still ride well and produce the lightest possible wheel. These are generally rich people with time on their hands. The lazy former amateur racers, like me, have stuck with clinchers -- although I still own a pair of sew-up wheels. Track wheels -- ancient Ergals on Campy HF. I would be afraid to ride them at my weight.

-- Jay Beattie.


Hey! we're not all rich dilettantes!

I prefer the ride of tubs and at 3-4 per year $19.95 each
it's not all that expensive (as compared to a year of
espresso or other regular commodities). Rims are roughly the
same price for either format.

And yes I have had ten-tire years. Never a zero-tire year.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

1 April, 1971


SO I went over to "recent developments bicycle tires' and wollahhh !

no flat earth people.

Abt the only upbeat tire concept I know....outside the all poleyster string sidewall...is the round slick.

butbutbut I just did a groundbreaking 25/50 miler

http://www.paddling.net/message/show...ip&tid=1700626

not on the horizon


http://www.wheeleez.com/repair.php