Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Whitfit.

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Sheldon "One Brake At A Time" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; |
| It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In article ,
Sheldon Brown wrote:

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Big Mig used clinchers in the mountains, presumably for this reason as
a large and heavy rider he was going to be braking hard.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

The video clip I saw on the evening news showed a dramatic fishtail-
almost sideways in one direction, then the other, and *boom* he hit
the pavement hard. Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and
through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping off the
bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the
smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni or Adri van der
Poel, but entertaining none the less. He must have been ****ting
bricks!

Tim McNamara wrote let it be known in
:

Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and
through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping
off the bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not
quite with the smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele
Pontoni or Adri van der Poel, but entertaining none the
less. He must have been ****ting bricks!

Did you catch the post-race interview with Lance? He was asked
if he had done any cyclo-cross racing this year. His answer was
'Just one race, plus today makes two'.





--

Curt Bousquet
moc.enilnacs@PTNN Reverse for email

Road biking in Southern VT and Western Mass.

My 2003 bike log:
http://www.scanline.com/bikelog/2003.html

Sheldon Brown at wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a
brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his
elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending
like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments
had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly
narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
shows a 10 second gap.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you
can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree
left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as
the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Then the problems begin.

Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into the
turn. As he begins to set for the turn he is closer to the center of the
road than Armstrong.

He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though Beloki
has hit the brakes.

The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is
obscured by Beloki's seated body. The bike seems to continue sliding out to
the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has the front of the bike
pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the turn at
this point.

While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40 degrees),
the tire appears behind him. It has come off the rim at this point.
Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a separate object.

The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne, swinging
through the air to a nearly 30 degree angle to the right of Beloki. It
knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward motion is arrested.

At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard on
his right leg and the damage progresses.

Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the brakes
hard, then locking up the rear, then rolling the tire, which seems
consistent with the images.

Sad, sad stuff....

-- Jim

http://www.cyclfiend.com
http://lists.cyclofiend.com/mailman/...fo/race-report

Jim Edgar wrote:
Sheldon Brown at wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:
An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to
mind two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in
the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in
that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He
was also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers
don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones
with them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect,
not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.
Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was,
however, a brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way
too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto
the pavement.
Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was
descending like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's
(F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in
this region.
Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.
Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on
fairly narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen
computer shows a 10 second gap.
The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -
you can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the
90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see
the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues,
"..that was a rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and
shift a bit, as the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.
Then the problems begin.
Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into
the turn. As he begins to set for the turn he is closer to the center of
the road than Armstrong.
He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though
Beloki has hit the brakes.
The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is
obscured by Beloki's seated body. The bike seems to continue sliding out
to the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has the front of the
bike pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the
turn at this point.
While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40
degrees), the tire appears behind him. It has come off the rim at this
point. Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a separate object.
The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne,
swinging through the air to a nearly 30 degree angle to the right of
Beloki. It knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward motion
is arrested.
At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard
on his right leg and the damage progresses.
Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the
brakes hard, then locking up the rear, then rolling the tire, which
seems consistent with the images.
Sad, sad stuff....
-- Jim
http://www.cyclfiend.com/http://www.cyclfiend.com[/url] http://lists.cy-
clofiend.com/mailman/listinfo/race-report"]http://lists.cyclofiend.com/-
mailman/listinfo/race-report



Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's tire
rolled and THEN it blew up. No way a clincher would do that of course
but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as it happened
either. I couldn't find who ONCE's tire sponsors are. Some
Michelin-sponsored teams have a deal to only ride clinchers.



--
Check out my bike blog!

http://diabloscott.blogspot.com

--------------------------
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

In article ,
DiabloScott wrote:

Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's
tire rolled and THEN it blew up. No way a clincher would do that of
course but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as it
happened either.

Yeah, it's not like events were happening quickly or anything! ;-)

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

I commented:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

Jim Edgar wrote:

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a
brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his
elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending
like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments
had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly
narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
shows a 10 second gap.

I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you
can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree
left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as
the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
sound surprised nonetheless.

I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to
criticize him in a public forum like this, if it weren't for my belief
that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, |
| and breeds reptiles of the mind. --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In article ,
Sheldon Brown wrote:

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the
highlights show is done in real time? I have always assumed that
he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a
bit of foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he
knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

Liggett and Sherwen sometime mention that they are commentating live,
watching in the press area at the finish on TV monitors. For the
daily TV broadcasts I suspect this is probably the case, and CBS
probably just picked up the video from the UK and edited it.

He does do some overdubbing for the WCP videos, and comes here to
Minnesota for those (or at least used to).

"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

I commented:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not
pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

Jim Edgar wrote:

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was,
however, a
brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on
his
elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was
descending
like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F).
Comments
had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him.
The
verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on
fairly
narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
shows a 10 second gap.

I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -
you
can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90
degree
left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that
was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit,
as
the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
sound surprised nonetheless.

I was watching the live coverage this morning, and Phil did indeed make that
comment about the "rather dodgy corner" Vino negotiated, moments before
Beloki's crash. In fact, he had commented several times on earlier descents
about the treacherous nature of the road surface, due to the "bitumen
melting" (although I doubt that was really a contributing factor).

~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.shastasoftware.com
Developers of CycliStats - Software for Cyclists


I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to
criticize him in a public forum like this, if it weren't for my belief
that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, |
| and breeds reptiles of the mind. --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com