Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail

On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 11:28:42 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)

My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and
minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant
advantages but significant detriments.

On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone
"crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or
chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the
tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone
that locks a wheel.

I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I
wouldn't worry about your frame breaking.

--
- Frank Krygowski

35C

On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used
in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my
last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa
(70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5,
which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808
psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and
Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000
psi)



My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and
minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant
advantages but significant detriments.

On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone
"crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or
chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the
tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone
that locks a wheel.

I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I
wouldn't worry about your frame breaking.


Agree, if there is a 23mm limit that's no good. At least it wouldn't be
for me. IIRC even a lot of Amgen participants were riding 25mm.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 02/06/15 03:46, Joerg wrote:


Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill?

This is a stupid question.

--
JS

On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used
in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my
last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa
(70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5,
which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808
psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and
Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000
psi)


It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame
felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are
about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly
stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings
wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel
frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in
the frame at all, with all my strength applied.

--
JS

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 7:46:03 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.

Ti has half the stiffness of Steel. You have to design around this. Fat downtube and fat bottom bracket shells are the answer for your problem. Look at the CF frames and Al frames. If you like the look of the skinny steel frames than you have a problem.

Lou


Lou

On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James
wrote:

On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used
in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my
last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa
(70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5,
which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808
psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and
Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000
psi)


It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame
felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are
about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly
stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings
wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel
frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in
the frame at all, with all my strength applied.

I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
bracket flexing.

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:23:59 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 7:46:03 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.

Ti has half the stiffness of Steel. You have to design around this. Fat downtube and fat bottom bracket shells are the answer for your problem. Look at the CF frames and Al frames. If you like the look of the skinny steel frames than you have a problem.

Lou


Lou

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTiiiiiii

as CF loomed on the horizon, Lightspeed via Colorado Cyclist began adverting frames with octagonal hexagonal and various tubing beam shapes in Ti.

I assume these are now collectors frames.

On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James
wrote:

On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used
in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my
last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa
(70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5,
which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808
psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and
Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000
psi)


It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame
felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are
about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly
stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings
wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel
frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in
the frame at all, with all my strength applied.


The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike I've
ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the magic
really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can splurge
more than with heavier materials.


I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
bracket flexing.


Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front
derailleur had rubbed through again.


My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where
the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate
more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting
2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter
for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set
of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so
much torque anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James
wrote:

On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
hold up?
Thanks...
B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used
in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my
last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa
(70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5,
which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808
psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and
Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000
psi)


It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame
felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are
about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly
stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings
wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel
frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in
the frame at all, with all my strength applied.


The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike I've
ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the magic
really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can splurge
more than with heavier materials.


I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
bracket flexing.


Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front
derailleur had rubbed through again.


My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where
the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate
more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting
2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter
for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set
of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so
much torque anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is standard operating procedure.


There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the front derailler.

Cheers

On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James
wrote:

On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while
I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how
it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road"
type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the
Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically,
assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg
rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear.
I'm assuming your use will be more sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html



http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross)
frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when
hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem
at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit
concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that
is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50
different grades at my last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength
of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809
psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength
limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000
psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa (
152,000 - 181,000 psi)


It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My
steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium
frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly
lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have
encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right
when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not
like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the
frame at all, with all my strength applied.


The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike
I've ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the
magic really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can
splurge more than with heavier materials.


I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was?
After all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance
Armstrong for that matter didn't seem to be continually whining
about the bottom bracket flexing.


Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the
front derailleur had rubbed through again.


My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear
shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the
right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the
front derailler.


That would be nice but the Shimano 600 series didn't have that back then.

What impressed me with a titanium MTB frame was the almost total absence
of chain ring wobble. I am wondering whether that would be the same on
cyclo-cross titanium frames.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/