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Gremlins and bikes!



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 9th 19, 11:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Gremlins and bikes!

On 6/9/2019 5:04 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jun 2019 16:07:34 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 1:12 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:38:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 7:41 AM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:26:26 -0700 (PDT),


...My son was having shifting problems suggestive of
worn cassettes, so I put on a new 10sp cassette that I
had hanging around for the bike (a CAAD 9 that used to
be mine). Shifted beautifully. We went for a ride,
and the cassette was rattling like it was loose. It
was -- and it needed a 1mm shim for the old 8/9 freehub
body. It seemed fine when I put it together. So, I put
in the shim, and it silenced the rattle. Oddly, there
was no shim when I pulled the old cassettes, and I
don't recall ever using one in the past -- at least not
on a Shimano hub.

This is too weird. We run a 10-speed Shimano cassette with
a long throw Ultegra road derailer on our tandem....


...I took the wheel off to clean the cassette, and
discovered the cogs were loose...


I got a spacer at the LBS, and the looseness is gone.
Haven't ridden it yet, but it shifts fine in the stand, and
I expect the same on the road.

Yes, Shimano Ten format cassettes (whether Shimano brand or
not) use a 1mm spacer behind low gear. Sprockets loose on
body is an amazingly common and annoying service error both
at home and in some shops.

Thanks, Andrew. The weird thing is I have zero memory of
seeing any spacer when I took the cassette off, nor can I find
one around my shop area. It worked fine before taking the
cassette off to replace the spoke, so I suppose I didn't see
and lost it.


It's an actual Shimano part. First result in web search:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...cassette-26559


Interesting. The spacer my LBS gave me had the little tabs on the
inner circumference. I didn't measure it, but it looked thin to
be 1 mm.



If you look inside most modern 11 or 12 tooth sprockets,
you'll see the slots don't go all the way through. The end
of the slots are closed, making total sprocket depth critical.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/262225...-1/s-l1000.jpg

Hence the spacer. Your dealer's not wrong, just about
anything would work so long as (and as you found) the
sprockets don't flop around.

p.s. Six speed sprocket sets fit six speed bodies. Seven
speed with seven, eight speed with 8. Starting with the 8
speed era, most replacement wheels include a spacer to fit a
Seven on your 8 cassette body. That's more sensible than
keeping 2 kinds (7/8) of the same wheel inventoried. So
since that was already well established when the number of
damned-near-functional combinations exploded, nobody in the
industry thought that thin CS-10 spacer was anything unusual.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #12  
Old June 10th 19, 12:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Theodore Heise[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Gremlins and bikes!

On Sun, 09 Jun 2019 17:56:57 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 5:04 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jun 2019 16:07:34 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 1:12 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:38:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 7:41 AM, Theodore Heise wrote:


...I took the wheel off to clean the cassette, and
discovered the cogs were loose...


I got a spacer at the LBS, and the looseness is gone.
Haven't ridden it yet, but it shifts fine in the stand,
and I expect the same on the road.

Yes, Shimano Ten format cassettes (whether Shimano brand
or not) use a 1mm spacer behind low gear. Sprockets loose
on body is an amazingly common and annoying service error
both at home and in some shops.

Thanks, Andrew. The weird thing is I have zero memory of
seeing any spacer when I took the cassette off, nor can I
find one around my shop area. It worked fine before taking
the cassette off to replace the spoke, so I suppose I didn't
see and lost it.


It's an actual Shimano part. First result in web search:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...cassette-26559


Interesting. The spacer my LBS gave me had the little tabs on
the inner circumference. I didn't measure it, but it looked
thin to be 1 mm.


If you look inside most modern 11 or 12 tooth sprockets, you'll
see the slots don't go all the way through. The end of the
slots are closed, making total sprocket depth critical.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/262225...-1/s-l1000.jpg

Hence the spacer. Your dealer's not wrong, just about anything
would work so long as (and as you found) the sprockets don't
flop around.


The picture and point are both helpful, thank you. It took my LBS
some time to find any kind of spacer, so my guess is they may be
aware of the "proper" part but also realized other options were
ok.


p.s. Six speed sprocket sets fit six speed bodies. Seven speed
with seven, eight speed with 8. Starting with the 8 speed era,
most replacement wheels include a spacer to fit a Seven on your
8 cassette body. That's more sensible than keeping 2 kinds
(7/8) of the same wheel inventoried. So since that was already
well established when the number of damned-near-functional
combinations exploded, nobody in the industry thought that thin
CS-10 spacer was anything unusual.


I'm sure you are right. I'd only clarify my perspective a bit.
My experience is too sparse to have considered the spacer use
usual or unusual, it's more that I'm surprised not to have noticed
looseness or a spacer in the several years I've had this wheel/hub
combination.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
  #13  
Old June 10th 19, 05:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Gremlins and bikes!

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:38:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 7:41 AM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:26:26 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 9:22:42 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Let's share stories of when Gremlins strike.

My latest is my Schwalbe 30mm CX Pro cyclocross tire. It has
gone completely flat a couple of times lately. So, yesterday I
took the tube out and pumped it up quite a bit to check it for
pinholes. PAssed it numerous times under water in a large pan.
No bubbles at all. Even checked the valve still no bubbles.
Pumped up the tube more and left it to hang overnight. This
morning it was still full of air. Let the air out and placed
tube back under tire and mounted tire to the rim. Pumped it up
to 80psi and went for a ride. Rode for a couple of hours and
came home. Tire pressure still at 80psi. I can only conclude
that there are Gremlins in my apartment and they let the air
out of the tire. Note that the tire was completely flat not
just soft.

What have Gremlins done to your bike?

Not a gremlin, but a WTF? My son was having shifting problems
suggestive of worn cassettes, so I put on a new 10sp cassette
that I had hanging around for the bike (a CAAD 9 that used to
be mine). Shifted beautifully. We went for a ride, and the
cassette was rattling like it was loose. It was -- and it
needed a 1mm shim for the old 8/9 freehub body. It seemed fine
when I put it together. So, I put in the shim, and it silenced
the rattle. Oddly, there was no shim when I pulled the old
cassettes, and I don't recall ever using one in the past -- at
least not on a Shimano hub. Maybe I'm just getting addled.


This is too weird. We run a 10-speed Shimano cassette with a long
throw Ultegra road derailer on our tandem. Two weeks ago the
derailer body snapped, and I replaced it with a new part (same
model). The shop also trued the wheel and adjusted the derailer
hanger at the same time, though the hanger had been unaffected by
the derailer breaking.

Last weekend, we broke a rear spoke. I replaced the spoke, and
touched up the true of the wheel. Yesterday we were out riding,
and I realized I'd gotten the cable adjusted off by a gear. I
tightened the cable enough to cover the full range of 10 cogs, and
we then had some weird shifting problems. I gradually got the
cable tension dialed in, but there was a spot or two going across
the casette where the shifting just jumped, oor even auto shifted
at times.

After we got home, I took the wheel off to clean the cassette, and
discovered the cogs were loose. I out on a brand new cassettte,
and had the same looseness. How did this happen? The cassette
and rear der had behaved beautifully for many many hundreds of
miles.

I got a spacer at the LBS, and the looseness is gone. Haven't
ridden it yet, but it shifts fine in the stand, and I expect the
same on the road.



Yes, Shimano Ten format cassettes (whether Shimano brand or
not) use a 1mm spacer behind low gear. Sprockets loose on
body is an amazingly common and annoying service error both
at home and in some shops.

Intermittent or inconsistent shifting, if yet unresolved,
may well be a kinked gear wire, a fraying gear wire ( look
in/near shifter!) or damaged casing (usually at first casing
stop).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Also, tandems put a huge strain on wheels and chains and need to be replaced on a short schedule. Most do not do this.
  #14  
Old June 10th 19, 05:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Gremlins and bikes!

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 2:07:42 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 1:12 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:38:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2019 7:41 AM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:26:26 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 9:22:42 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Let's share stories of when Gremlins strike.

My latest is my Schwalbe 30mm CX Pro cyclocross tire. It
has gone completely flat a couple of times lately. [with
no cause found]


What have Gremlins done to your bike?

Not a gremlin, but a WTF? My son was having shifting
problems suggestive of worn cassettes, so I put on a new
10sp cassette that I had hanging around for the bike (a
CAAD 9 that used to be mine). Shifted beautifully. We
went for a ride, and the cassette was rattling like it
was loose. It was -- and it needed a 1mm shim for the
old 8/9 freehub body. It seemed fine when I put it
together. So, I put in the shim, and it silenced the
rattle. Oddly, there was no shim when I pulled the old
cassettes, and I don't recall ever using one in the past
-- at least not on a Shimano hub.


This is too weird. We run a 10-speed Shimano cassette with
a long throw Ultegra road derailer on our tandem. Two weeks
ago the derailer body snapped, and I replaced it with a new
part (same model). The shop also trued the wheel and
adjusted the derailer hanger at the same time, though the
hanger had been unaffected by the derailer breaking.

Last weekend, we broke a rear spoke. I replaced the spoke,
and touched up the true of the wheel. Yesterday we were out
riding, and I realized I'd gotten the cable adjusted off by
a gear. I tightened the cable enough to cover the full
range of 10 cogs, and we then had some weird shifting
problems. I gradually got the cable tension dialed in, but
there was a spot or two going across the casette where the
shifting just jumped, oor even auto shifted at times.

After we got home, I took the wheel off to clean the
cassette, and discovered the cogs were loose. I out on a
brand new cassettte, and had the same looseness. How did
this happen? The cassette and rear der had behaved
beautifully for many many hundreds of miles.

I got a spacer at the LBS, and the looseness is gone.
Haven't ridden it yet, but it shifts fine in the stand, and
I expect the same on the road.


Yes, Shimano Ten format cassettes (whether Shimano brand or
not) use a 1mm spacer behind low gear. Sprockets loose on
body is an amazingly common and annoying service error both at
home and in some shops.


Thanks, Andrew. The weird thing is I have zero memory of seeing
any spacer when I took the cassette off, nor can I find one around
my shop area. It worked fine before taking the cassette off to
replace the spoke, so I suppose I didn't see and lost it.


Intermittent or inconsistent shifting, if yet unresolved, may
well be a kinked gear wire, a fraying gear wire ( look in/near
shifter!) or damaged casing (usually at first casing stop).


Yes, that also crossed my mind. I've most often seen it manifest
as failed or greatly delayed shifting to smaller cogs because the
added friction from a damaged wire or housing is more easily
overcome when pulling the cable (i.e., shifting to a larger cog.)
I don't think that's the problem here, but if it persists this
will definitely be the next thing I look into.


Is it a product-generational thing? I don't remember using one
before on 10sp. It might be because I was using a different set
of wheels with a later generation freehub body (?).


Same here. I don't recall ever seeing a spacer under the cassette
on this (or indeed any) Shimano component.


It's an actual Shimano part. First result in web search:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...cassette-26559

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The best way to tell is that the cassette will rattle back and forth without the spacer.
 




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